The White Witch Issue

[Tirian541]

Well, sorry to break it to you, but I don't believe there is A satan being or such. In the Hebrew and Greek the word satan means "tempter", which could be anyone or thing. The White Witch is just a picture of sin or evil-ness itself.

[Ithilwen]

Tirian541 , do you mean there's no such thing as Satan in real life, or in the books?

I can't agree with you on that either way, though; but that's alright.
I believe Satan exists. And personally, I think C.S. Lewis meant Jadis to be Satan, but I'm sure many would disagree with me, and many would agree with me too. It doesn't really matter either way, I suppose. The point is she was the villain of the story -- or of LWW and MN, at the least; possibly more. And representing evil, whether she was meant to be Satan or not.


~Riella

[Bookwyrm]

It might just be me but I thought that The Witch appeared in all the books.
Here's what I thought:
In MN, Jadis is herself.
In LWW, as the White Witch.
In PC, the hag that was a friend of Nikabrik was the witch.
In VDT, on the table at Ramandu's Island lays the knife that the Witch used to "kill" Aslan.
In SC, as the Lady of the Green Kirtle.
In HHB, maybe as fear itself, Shasta is very fearfull till he meets Aslan.
In LB, as Tash.

Seriously? That list has got to be the textbook example of over-analyzing a novel. How exactly is Jadis fear? I think it's rather difficult for dead people to become emotions. And if the hag were Jadis, why exactly would she be trying to call herself back up? The LotGK IS NOT Jadis. There's no reason to think so from the text and the Estate has confirmed that the two witches are not the same person.

[Ithilwen]

The LotGK IS NOT Jadis. There's no reason to think so from the text and the Estate has confirmed that the two witches are not the same person.

Did the Estate hear that from C.S. Lewis himself though? That makes a big difference. I'm not completely sure either way if Jadis is the LOTGK or not, but that was the impression I got when I read it the first time. I can see it going either way. And I did find some things in the text that could point to them being the same person. I've been wanting to post them on NarniaWeb in case they haven't been noticed by anyone else yet, but... I'm just not sure which thread it would belong on... Is this thread the place, or would it be too off-subject?

I don't think Jadis and the hag were the same person, for the same reason you pointed out Bookwym. Jadis equaling Tash is an interesting idea, though. I'm not sure if I agree on it, but it is interesting. I like the idea of sort of every evil thing in the series coming from the same source. It reminds me of real life, where every evil thing comes from the devil.


~Riella

[Lady Galadriel]

The idea of the White Witch being the hag in PC and the Lady of the Green Kirtle is from the BBC adaptations when the same actress was used for all three parts.

[Lady Haleth]

I don't think the WW and the LOTGK were necessarily the same person so much as the same kind of person. They were probably related (it hints at that in the text). But I am sick and tired of the Witch popping up everywhere. SHE DIED! And they didn't get the chance to summon her up again! If she tempts Edmund again... It just seems to cheapen Aslan's sacrifice to defeat the Witch, if they keep having her come in everywhere. There was absolutely no reason for Edmund to have nightmares about her. He could just as easily had nightmares about something else (if he'd lived through WWII and bombings, that's prime fuel for nightmares right there.) And also, the nightmares in the books were much less defined. They were vague noises, and mysterious somethings that they kept expecting to appear...It was much more effective that way.

[Ithilwen]

The idea of the White Witch being the hag in PC and the Lady of the Green Kirtle is from the BBC adaptations when the same actress was used for all three parts.

It's not where I got the idea of Jadis and the LOTGK being the same. I had never seen the BBC version of The Silver Chair back when I read it. Actually... I still haven't seen it, lol. As I said, it was things in the text itself that made me think so. I wish I knew if I was allowed to list them here...
As for Edmund dreaming about Jadis, I don't think it's too far fetched. After all, she was the one who convinced him to betray his siblings. It wouldn't be as much a nightmare about how "scary" she is as it would be him having a nightmare about his past. In real life, I've heard of many Christians who have nightmares about returning to their old, sinful lives from their pasts. It could be that kind of thing -- nightmares about Jadis tempting him again, and him giving in again in the dream.


~Riella

[Tirian541]

I don't think the WW and the LOTGK were necessarily the same person so much as the same kind of person. They were probably related (it hints at that in the text). But I am sick and tired of the Witch popping up everywhere. SHE DIED! And they didn't get the chance to summon her up again! If she tempts Edmund again... It just seems to cheapen Aslan's sacrifice to defeat the Witch, if they keep having her come in everywhere. There was absolutely no reason for Edmund to have nightmares about her. He could just as easily had nightmares about something else (if he'd lived through WWII and bombings, that's prime fuel for nightmares right there.)

But sin always is here till God destorys it in the end; right? So the WW being a picture of sin wouldn't be TOTALLY destoryed till the end of Narnia in the Last Battle.
That's a interesting thought about the WW and LotGK being somehow related. Because in LWW Mr. Beaver talked about her past...
Aslan didn't "died" to kill the Witch, he died to save Edmund from being killed by her.
Edmund might have still been effected by the sin he did, and therefore has nightmares kindof tempting him to do it again. Or since he is know in Narnia his nightmares are different.

Ahh! If only C. S. Lewis himself could answer some of these questions.

[Lady Haleth]

Yes, but I still wish they would stop dropping the Witch into stories where she wasn't supposed to be. It just seems that they need an excuse to put her in everywhere and it sort of irritates me. I don't like them rehashing all the Witch/Edmund conflict, because that's supposed to be over and done with. He's redeemed now. I'm not saying he should be perfect or anything, but if he's going to be tempted, can't he be tempted by something else?

[waggawerewolf27]

Then let us hope that after SC they make MN. That way, the White Witch story arc will be done and over, paving the way for the Calormenes and their notion of Tash, a far more deadly sort of being, and who has the best claim to be the reverse of Aslan. That is the way I see God and the Devil.

I don't see any problem with the idea that LOTGK is somehow related to the White Witch. After all, the White Witch did flee to the north of Narnia before returning there for her hundred-year stint. I like to see the White Witch as similar to HP's Voldemort. That is to say, someone whose activities have been so corrupt and terrifying that she has surrendered much of any claim to be human enough to die and be quietly forgotten about. Someone whose very memory hangs about like a bad smell.

[aragorn2]

Even though Satan was defeated at the cross he hasn't been totally destroyed yet.
And as far as the VDT is concerned I am totally fine with the WW being shown on the Dark Island where dreams come to life(although it seems as though it is a little changed in the trailer) because who or what would ever haunt Edmund for the rest of his life more than her?

[Ithilwen]

Even though Satan was defeated at the cross he hasn't been totally destroyed yet.
And as far as the VDT is concerned I am totally fine with the WW being shown on the Dark Island where dreams come to life(although it seems as though it is a little changed in the trailer) because who or what would ever haunt Edmund for the rest of his life more than her?

My thoughts exactly!
And plus, the way it reads in the book PC, saying you can "always get them back", it shows that it's not completely ridiculous to see Jadis again.
And anyway, it's not undoing what Aslan did. It's not bringing her back to life. She is still dead. It's her ghost that comes back in PC, and either a ghost or an imaginary form of her that's come back in VDT. (By imaginary form, I mean Edmund's imagination, since it's an island of dreams/nightmares coming true)


~Riella

[Bookwyrm]

Even though Satan was defeated at the cross he hasn't been totally destroyed yet.

The difference is Jesus didn't bite Satan's head off. Aslan killed the Witch. She almost came back in PC and was stopped not by Aslan, but by Edmund. Now we have her coming back in VDT and possibly even being the true form of the sea serpent. At this point it would seem Movie! Aslan isn't capable of keeping her dead.

[aragorn2]

Bookwyrm, she isn't alive in VDT, she appears as a nightmare on the Dark Island. Which is not that for from the book since we have no idea what was going through Edmund's mind, since it is told through Lucy's perspective.

[Bookwyrm]

Coriakin explains that the source of evil that is destroying the good in the world is from the White Witch inside the Dark Island. Coriakin states that the seven swords of the seven lords can prevent and stop the evil. They must follow a blue star to Ramandu’s island. “Beware- you are all about to be tested. Evil has the upper hand, it will do all in its power to tempt you- do not fall into the temptation.”

Doesn't sound like a nightmare to me. Unless the Dark Island can see the future and generated Edmund's nightmare months ahead of time.

[aragorn2]

Is that in the screening with all the spoilers? I have not read them and I don't plan to