12 – The Queen of Underland

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12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Jul 02, 2017 6:25 pm

1. a. (Glumpuddle’s question) Why is Jill the first one to succumb to the witch’s magic? Why is Scrubb the second? How come Puddleglum is able to fight the magic longer?
b. (Pattertwig’s Pal’s question) How do you see the scene where the witch is enchanting the prince, the children, and Puddleglum? Is there an order in which they succumb to the spell? If so what? What do we learn about each of them from this scene?

2. How would you describe the sun and a lion to someone who had not seen them. Do you think you would fare better than the Prince and Scrubb?

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

6. How do you think the scene will be adapted?
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 09, 2017 12:53 am

Now the crunch in SC has come. Prince Rilian, who, even before he was released from the Silver Chair, has admitted he met the travellers by the Giant's Bridge, is about to leave with Puddleglum, Scrubb and Pole. But the Queen of Underland has arrived belatedly, and now we see how LOTGK operates. She is white with rage, but masters herself. The Prince leads off first, detailing how he has recovered from his troubles and how he rejects her plans to subjugate another country, killing that country's leaders, to enable the Prince's recovery from what she says is his malady.

1. a. (Glumpuddle’s question) Why is Jill the first one to succumb to the witch’s magic? Why is Scrubb the second? How come Puddleglum is able to fight the magic longer?

Yes, throughout this scene it is Puddleglum who has the most to say, as well as Scrubb. The witch who strums a mandolin, and who has put some sort of powder on the fire, denies everything she is told. There is no such place as Narnia, she didn't meet the three travellers by the Giant's Bridge (even though even the Prince said she did), and Prince Rilian isn't the King's son of Narnia. Jill is the one who has least to say, mainly to assert that she doesn't come from that world, but the incense and the thrumming are stopping her from thinking clearly. And it is Jill who mentions Aslan. Jill would be the easiest for LOTGK to overcome, to be sure, due to her relative unfamiliarity with the Narnian World, and also due to her previous unwillingness to doubt LOTGK. And if she is physically smaller than her companions, she may succumb first anyway.

b. (Pattertwig’s Pal’s question) How do you see the scene where the witch is enchanting the prince, the children, and Puddleglum? Is there an order in which they succumb to the spell? If so what? What do we learn about each of them from this scene?

But I disagree that there is any sort of order about how they all are affected by the incense and the thrumming. Jill, Scrubb and the Prince seem to go down together, being all affected by the miasma in the room and the monotonous sound effects. The Prince has been recently enchanted, and he needs time to recuperate fully. Besides, even though he is a Narnian native, like Puddleglum, he shares a human ancestry with two of his rescuers. Scrubb has done the best he can, but both he and Jill are succumbing to the LOTGK's methods. Only the non-human Puddleglum seems able to resist LOTGK to any great extent.

2. How would you describe the sun and a lion to someone who had not seen them. Do you think you would fare better than the Prince and Scrubb?

You meant Scrubb, the Prince and Jill, don't you? It was Jill who mentioned Aslan, and Lions. But no, I don't think I'd fare any better than any of them. I've met bullies like LOTGK. Who would half-mockingly insist that Jill must be the Queen of Somewhere else - all the better to ridicule her, even though Jill truthfully denies it. The Press and a bunch of others may do this sort of thing all the time. :( Not to mention people who unaccountably deny where they were or what they were doing at the time. Or who may deny the reality of anything they are told. Unfortunately for Jill and friends, they haven't the luxury of such denial whilst LOTGK is around.

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?

Puddleglum makes the best points of the lot, including stamping out that fire. And boy does that provoke a reaction.

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

This is an action-packed scene that doesn't need too much alteration to make a really good movie. There is one small alteration I'd like to make. The green powder the witch puts on the fire doesn't have to result in green smoke, green mist or green anything. There is a yellow substance called cochineal, which, when used as a food colouring usually changes the cake, icing or whatever to red. Can't something like that be done if it is necessary for green powder to produce a coloured mist? Meanwhile why have a colour at all? It isn't mentioned in the book as far as I can see.

6. How do you think the scene will be adapted?

~x( I'd rather not think about it. @-) Anhun and a few others might have a better idea. :-$
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Jul 09, 2017 5:52 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:You meant Scrubb, the Prince and Jill, don't you?

No I meant what I said. Jill did not explain what a lion was she just said Aslan's name. The Prince tried to explain the sun and Scrubb tried to explain what a lion.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 10, 2017 8:53 pm

Oops, I stand corrected. :ymblushing: And I apologise. It was Jill who said Aslan but Eustace who tried to explain what a lion was.

However, I still think I couldn't have explained either a lion or the Sun better than what Eustace and Rilian said, because LOTGK was too intent on dismissing, ridiculing, negating and denying anything any of them said, to push her own worldview. And can you imagine her apologising for an error? Or conceding that she did actually meet Jill, Eustace and Puddleglum on the Giant bridge? Or that there was indeed a place called Narnia, just over the Shribble, which demarcated the southern border of Ettinsmoor, which she herself mentioned at the Giant Bridge?

I hope that in the movie, Puddleglum's speech, which makes the best points for not agreeing with LOTGK, is actually said by Puddleglum and not given to any of the other characters opposing her. I also hope that the snake in the new production looks a lot more fearsome than the one in the BBC TV Silver Chair.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby shastastwin » Jul 18, 2017 5:43 am

I had a thought while listening to this scene on the Focus on the Family adaptation earlier: what do you all think of the fact that the children think of their lives on Earth and Narnia and all being "like a dream" just as the Pevensies in LWW said the lamppost was like "something from a dream, or the dream of a dream"? What makes this experience different from the other (aside from the witch)?
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Ryadian » Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

1. a. (Glumpuddle’s question) Why is Jill the first one to succumb to the witch’s magic? Why is Scrubb the second? How come Puddleglum is able to fight the magic longer?
b. (Pattertwig’s Pal’s question) How do you see the scene where the witch is enchanting the prince, the children, and Puddleglum? Is there an order in which they succumb to the spell? If so what? What do we learn about each of them from this scene?

Of the four of them, Jill has the least experience with magic and would know the least about how to resist it, though I think it's important to note that even after she lost notice of the fact that she was under an enchantment, she still thought to mention Aslan. Given that they all give in at one point or another (even Puddleglum joins them in saying "There never was a sun"), but still manage to fight back at some point before the very end, it's hard to say what order it actually happened in. I think the reason why Puddleglum was the only one who was able to work up the strength to put out the fire, though, is because Puddleglum has been the most stalwart and focused of them all all along. He was the most resistant about the detour in Harfang, he was the one who convinced the others to free Rilian, and of course there's the fact that he's already been proven quite capable of finding hope in even the darkest circumstances (even if he's imagining the dark circumstances).


2. How would you describe the sun and a lion to someone who had not seen them. Do you think you would fare better than the Prince and Scrubb?
The sun would be very hard to explain, especially since it's unclear how Narnian astronomy works so our explanation for how the sun works may not apply in Narnia. I certainly think there could have been a better way to describe a lion, but given how far long the enchantment had already gone at that point, I can hardly pretend I would've done any better.

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?
This is a hard question, since we know full well that the Witch is a liar and that everything Puddleglum is holding onto is real. How would I feel if someone in real life was declaring that they were going to believe in a fantasy world because it was better than the real world? At the same time, it's remarkable and heroic that he's able to hang on to this in face of such enchantment which can twist your own mind against you. I guess, ultimately, Puddleglum makes excellent points because what he believes is, in fact, true.

One thought I have about the adaptation (I don't expect it to happen, but I'd like it to ;)) ) is I'd like to see some of the "shivering" Rilian has when the Witch first appears after he's been freed. I don't remember the BBC one quite as well (it wasn't my favorite of the Narnia productions when I was younger ;)) ), but I know that in the FotF one, you almost get a sense that it's a relief for Rilian to get what he wants to say to the LotGK off his chest, and there's no indication to me that it took "great effort" to say it. I think it gives the scene a very different dynamic, and I'd like to see the book's version this time, especially since I think it gives Rilian a needed moment of characterization - that he's still feeling the effects of the enchantment, but he stands up to her anyways.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Hwinning » Aug 07, 2017 12:22 pm

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?

Puddleglum's speech is hands down the most iconic monologue in the Chronicles of Narnia. When I first read it, it instantly gave me an answer to everyone who told me God wasn't real and that religion was a waste of time. He makes excellent points.

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

I actually want it to be a typical, Hollywood, epic combat scene.
Mind you, this is the only scene this level of violence will be accepted. And please don't extend it longer than it needs to be.

6. How do you think the scene will be adapted?

I honestly think the green mist will make a comeback. And, even though this opinion is going to be very unpopular, I'm welcome to that. It is both logical and visual here.

shastastwin wrote:I had a thought while listening to this scene on the Focus on the Family adaptation earlier: what do you all think of the fact that the children think of their lives on Earth and Narnia and all being "like a dream" just as the Pevensies in LWW said the lamppost was like "something from a dream, or the dream of a dream"? What makes this experience different from the other (aside from the witch)?


It has been too short of a time in the world of Narnia for Earth to seem like a dream. And, since they are still in the same world as Narnia, those experiences are not like a dream either. For example, in VoDT, the characters weren't in Narnia but they could remember it perfectly well.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby narnia fan 7 » Feb 17, 2018 3:51 pm

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

It will be interesting too see how they do the witch's transformation into a serpent, I'm not sure how I'd want them to do it but I think it'd be cool if they could find a way to have it look like Lewis described. As for the fight it's self I think it's a pretty straight forward fight scene.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Valiant_Nymph » May 08, 2018 1:59 pm

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?
This is one of my favourite moments in the whole series. And I love it! I especially like his comment that if 'overworld' is really all in their imagination, then their imagination is a whole lot better than the Witch's real world.

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?
I wonder if they could do something similar to how the witch in Sleeping Beauty turns into a dragon, whom the Prince has to fight. It could actually be an exciting scene. But it shouldn't be mindless; it should emphasize the characters' courage.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby PrinceRillianIX » Dec 20, 2018 2:03 pm

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

This is an interesting one and something I've thought about for years and years, it's definitely hard to get that awful image of the transformation in the BBC serial. Anyway, my idea for this is to have a look at other transformations and also think about it's place in the story. I think it also depends on what actress they get.

For example, two of the best woman-to-snake transformations I have seen are the ones from the Harry Potter franchise. The first one is the transformation from Bathilda Bagshot to Nagini. The effect was quite gruesome in the sense that Bathilda's face becomes distorted and you hear the sound of cracking before eventually her clothes drop to the floor and in that movement, the snake flies from the clothing at the protagonists.

On the other hand, in The Crimes of Grindelwald, the character Nagini is shown as a human. In a scene within a freak show/circus, Nagini (the human) is made to transform into the snake. She does this but folding her arms and throwing her head back, almost like a gymnast. Her flies back and her arms become slithery and wrapped round herself. The special effects have kicked in and she folds herself in as her body parts turn into snake like limbs. Eventually she becomes the full snake we know and love.

I think either of these would be interesting ideas for the LOTGK's transformation and I think offer realistic ideas compared to the BBC series and big colourful, grand explosion they could do, which would be quite abrupt as the snake is only going to be around the same size as Rillian, rather than a huge snake that would be impossible to take on.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Movie Aristotle » Nov 10, 2019 8:05 pm

1. a. (Glumpuddle’s question) Why is Jill the first one to succumb to the witch’s magic? Why is Scrubb the second? How come Puddleglum is able to fight the magic longer?

b. (Pattertwig’s Pal’s question) How do you see the scene where the witch is enchanting the prince, the children, and Puddleglum? Is there an order in which they succumb to the spell? If so what? What do we learn about each of them from this scene?


Perhaps it has to do with the length of stay in Narnia. Puddleglum has been there the longest and is the eldest (and perhaps most sensible?) of the group. Eustace has been in Narnia second longest. Narnia is still relatively new to Jill. Perhaps that allows her to be enchanted more easily?

2. How would you describe the sun and a lion to someone who had not seen them. Do you think you would fare better than the Prince and Scrubb?


I'm not sure I would do much better. The witch uses a clever trap. First she pretends she knows not of what they speak, then she asks them to describe these things. Because they referenced items the queen would be familiar with, which is the natural thing to do, she is able to use the argument that the sun and Aslan are only exaggerations of a light and a cat. If they were to instead use abstract terms to describe the sun and Aslan, then she still would have said "you cannot tell me what it is like."
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Cleander » Jan 18, 2020 5:41 pm

A question that just occurred to me is, why does Rilian come off as so naïve when he confronts the Witch as she comes in? After telling her flat out that he now knows who he is and renounces her evil schemes (which, so far, is a fairly understandable action) he then asks her politely for safe conduct and a guide out of her kingdom!
We're talking about a man who has been held prisoner by this fiendish lady for ten years. Wouldn't he have been slightly suspicious and distrusting of her after all that? Does he really think she'll just nicely let him go when he tells her he doesn't want to play anymore?

At first I wondered if he just feels like he has no other choice, given that (as he states later) it would not suit well with his heart or his honor to slay a lady (not to mention they're surrounded by upwards of 1000 spear-toting gnomes). Then again, if, as he gives us to understand, he's fine with trying to deceive the Earthmen, why doesn't he attempt some show of trickery? He could just pretend to still be enchanted, and give some reason for the chair being destroyed and himself being released early. Then he could possibly talk himself and his rescuers into a position to escape.
It seems more likely to me that his mindset of courtly politeness is really at fault here. He just expects a queenly lady to act with honor and decorum, and politely let him go when he asks. Stupid, perhaps, but it's good etiquette where he comes from.
I almost feel like I can't blame Lewis for this, given that he seems to be trying to adhere to the chivalrous, medieval culture of Narnia that he set down in the first book. If the character has to be a little dumb in order to be consistent, so be it.
What are your thoughts? Is Rilian being naïve here, or not?
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jan 18, 2020 6:53 pm

Cleander wrote:A question that just occurred to me is, why does Rilian come off as so naïve when he confronts the Witch as she comes in? After telling her flat out that he now knows who he is and renounces her evil schemes (which, so far, is a fairly understandable action) he then asks her politely for safe conduct and a guide out of her kingdom!


Now that is a very good question. It is also something that might have bedevilled C.S.Lewis in reality, given the times of history he was writing in. Remember, that Rilian was still a Prince, son of the king Caspian the Tenth, modelled no doubt on C.S.Lewis' admiration for George VI, whose steadfast conduct in WWII was indeed something to admire. George VI, with genuine Royal Navy service to his credit, was called to service as King, despite his not being born for the position, & despite his troubles with a severe stutter which hampered his ability to give speeches. Privately, George VI had "gnashes" & could swear enough to make a sailor blush. But should you tell children that the UK Royal family, by then headed by George VI's elder daughter, Elizabeth II, that even legitimately human fairy-tale royalty behaves sometimes less than nobly? I agree that it was "only" Jill, Eustace, & Puddleglum.

I'm also thinking of the perceived ungallant conduct of Japan in bombing Pearl Harbour, when I understand the Japanese government had yet to declare war formally on USA? It is different for the bombing of Darwin, since even before that incident Japan had already taken over Indonesia, had sunk allied ships, including HMAS Perth, in the Sunda Straits, so we were next in line, anyway, we had every reason to assume the Japanese would want to wage war on us.

At least Prince Rilian asked politely.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Cleander » Jan 18, 2020 8:11 pm

Yeah, I suppose word of Rilian's actions could possibly have leaked out if he survived and got back to Narnia, so he might have had that in mind and was trying to uphold his princely honour even when braving a sorceress. I'm just a little surprised that he could keep a level of formality and politeness when addressing someone who had kidnapped and tormented him for 10 years. I think I might have been a little sharper with her in his position- though that may not be the best thing to do around a powerful and evil witch. :-s
Good point about the possible inspiration drawn from George VI! I never made that connection, but it's enough to make me want to learn a bit about him.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Col Klink » Jan 19, 2020 8:05 am

A question that just occurred to me is, why does Rilian come off as so naïve when he confronts the Witch as she comes in? After telling her flat out that he now knows who he is and renounces her evil schemes (which, so far, is a fairly understandable action) he then asks her politely for safe conduct and a guide out of her kingdom! We're talking about a man who has been held prisoner by this fiendish lady for ten years. Wouldn't he have been slightly suspicious and distrusting of her after all that? Does he really think she'll just nicely let him go when he tells her he doesn't want to play anymore?


I actually think he might be being a little sarcastic.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Cleander » Jan 19, 2020 6:13 pm

Col Klink wrote:I actually think he might be being a little sarcastic.


Now THAT is an interesting idea! I wonder if that would look good if they brought that out in any future adaptation...
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