Pairings?

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Re: Pairings?

Postby De_De » Jul 04, 2013 12:10 pm

waggawerewolf27, Interesting point about Susan and Rabadash. Susan seems to be quite a soft character and when Rabadash was at Cair Paravel he acted very gentlemanly which would make him first choice for any princess. Although there were no comman feelings, I mean they hardly knew each other. It was all very official. I don't know how she could even consider him?
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Movie Aristotle » Jul 04, 2013 9:07 pm

I'm coming in late to the conversation but I would say that the only romance in Narnia that I would approve of is Caspian and Ramandu's Daughter. In a SC film there would have to be a flash back or an intro to the movie that involves the younger years of Caspain and his queen. We need a lead up to the sorrowful moment when she dies, and I don't think the Walden's VDT gave us much to go on.

I don't want a Shasta/Aravis romance for the surprise factor. They bicker so much in the story that them getting married is the last thing you expect, and yet somehow seems to be the only possible way that the story could end. I like how you don't expect it.

There could be a couple pseudo-romances. A film of HHB could show us more of the charming side of Rabadash. Then when we see his true colors the hypocrisy will make him seem all the more dangerous to our heroes. Perhaps the film makers might dare a bit of Rillian/LotGK romance in order to surprise us when we find out she's evil?
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Re: Pairings?

Postby DamselJillPole » Jul 04, 2013 10:08 pm

I agree with you Movie Aristotle.

I always wonder and worry about how they are going to go about the Caspian/Liliandil relationship in SC, actually most of all with Liliandil. It's a given that Suspian fans will cheer in crowded theaters when she dies. 8-|

However they didn't build up her personality enough in Dawn Treader for people to even like her so to be honest if they don't do this at last minute in SC no one will care and to be honest I probably wont and this makes me sad because I want to feel sorry for these movie characters.

I am hoping to see a marriage and some romantic flashbacks of Caspian and Liliandil. Or even have Liliandil with Aslan after Caspian dies and we can see them reunite in Aslan's Country.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby De_De » Jul 04, 2013 11:49 pm

I agree with you Damsel. When I went to the movie with some friends who hadn't read the book and I told them that actually Caspian and Liliandil get married they were like "What? He hardly even knows her. I thought she was just a side character" :( it really is sad. Becasue the movie tried to put more romance than in the book, but it truned out to be nothing. Only fans of the book know what's going on. I think they did it more for the fans then for the story.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 05, 2013 1:16 am

DamselJillPole wrote:It's a given that Suspian fans will cheer in crowded theaters when she dies.


Maybe that is the case, but there is a good way to resolve this issue for both sides. A heartbroken Caspian as an old man is no romantic figure at all. And he should die as he lived, faithful to Liliandil and finally relieved to get his missing son back. At the end of SC (book) Jill goes to a party where she wears her Narnian get-up.

What if that party was Susan's engagement party? To a much younger Caspian look-alike perhaps? Someone with whom she has rushed into a 'romance' with, because he seemed someone "suitable", just like Rabadash? Wasn't that sort of scenario hinted at in Lucy's beauty spell in VDT? I can see how on some such occasion that Susan might say things like "fancy you remembering those funny games we played as children", that she would be too busy with wedding plans and socialising to give Jill the time of day, that she would be too happy flashing around her gorgeous engagement ring to be interested in meetings to discuss Narnia, and that Polly Plummer, if she was there, would have some grounds for her LB comments?
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Re: Pairings?

Postby King_Erlian » Jul 05, 2013 4:33 am

A thought's just struck me: we tend to assume, from the way Eustace, Jill and Polly described it, that Susan's rejection of Narnia was entirely her free choice and therefore her own fault. But what if it was due, in part, to her feeling pressure from those around her to act in a way that they considered to be "sensible" and "grown-up"? She might have secretly wanted to join in the Narnian "games", but didn't want to be seen to be acting in a way that the people she wanted to impress would consider childish; just as in PC, while they were making their way to Aslan's How, she wanted to believe Aslan had appeared to Lucy but wouldn't let herself. Susan always appeared to be more sensitive to what other people thought about her (or what she thought other people thought).
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Re: Pairings?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 06, 2013 5:22 am

Yes you are right. We were watching a program which roughly covered Uk in the 20th century from 1901 to 1979, that is to say, between the death of Queen Victoria and the election of Margaret Thatcher. This 5 part BBC series, called Turn Back time, and set in Morecombe in Northern England, showed how families behaved to each other and to their neighbours according to class, income, position in the family, and type of occupation and how this all gradually changed as a result of first WW1, the Depression, WW2, the swinging sixties, and lastly the difficulties UK was having during the 1970's.

Of course Susan would feel pressured by what 'grown ups' thought of her, as she had always been, & what was considered usual, strange and scandalous in 1949 when Narnia finished, or even a couple of years earlier. In the pre-war age, there were plenty of references to 'romance', but royalty, in particular, was expected to marry someone who was considered 'suitable' to their station. Even back in UK it would be still little different about what was considered 'respectable' for everyone, despite the changes the WW2 was making to how people related to each other. Thus, I couldn't see her wanting to discuss Rabadash, Tashbaan, the Narnia romp or even Caspian with any of the seven friends of Narnia in front of anyone else in her life at that time, let alone a new fiance, or, worse still, his people. It wouldn't be 'respectabiggle' now would it?

And I expect she wouldn't want to let on that at one stage she thought Lucy was going mad, or that despite being Queen in Narnia, she was really still a frightened child at heart, even when she liked to pretend otherwise. My point is that in Narnia Susan had some difficulty in facing the possibility that someone who had the rank of the Crown Prince in Calormen could be so unsuitable in character, when character analysis, even perhaps her own, was clearly not something that Susan was really good at. And that whether one lived in Narnia or UK handsome still is as handsome does.

I also guess that Polly saw through her. And that if Susan really wanted to get married, because it was the 'done thing', she would find herself in quite a predicament at some stage or other in her life when she would be forced to 'come clean' about these Narnian adventures and what they should have taught her about trusting the wrong people and the wrong sets of values, among other things. Of course Susan is only a fictitional character, but what would happen if she talked in her sleep for example? Or let something drop when she couldn't have avoided it?
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Lady Galadriel » Jul 06, 2013 5:05 pm

I like the pairing of Shasta and Aravis, but of course, that's because it is actually book canon. ;) I wouldn't want to see very much actual romance in a movie adaptation of HHB, though. It's been done enough times. It's expected to happen, and it's cliché. It would be very neat, in my opinion, if the filmmakers could come up with something unexpected. Shasta and Aravis don't even like each other at first -- I don't see any grounds for romantic scenes between them (at least not until a lot closer to the end of the story!). Why should they like each other? Aravis is of a high lineage; and for all she and Shasta know, he's merely a peasant. I would like to see a fair amount of rivalry going on between them -- as long as it's not the rivalry that comes out of having a secret crush on someone. :p (Plenty of rivalry, bickering, etc. goes on between them, Bree, and Hwin in the book.)

De_De wrote:waggawerewolf27, Interesting point about Susan and Rabadash. Susan seems to be quite a soft character and when Rabadash was at Cair Paravel he acted very gentlemanly which would make him first choice for any princess. Although there were no comman feelings, I mean they hardly knew each other. It was all very official. I don't know how she could even consider him?


In histories and fictional stories, it's a common thing for people of royalty to marry each other even if not for the purpose of love. I imagine an alliance between Narnia and Calormen (due to the marriage of Narnia's queen to Calormen's crown prince) could be greatly beneficial to both countries. This would explain why a marriage was being considered between the two in the first place.

Although now that I think of it, it seems that it would be odd for Narnia to want any sort of alliance with Calormen. Unfortunately I haven't read the book in too long to be able to recall exactly what Peter and Edmund thought about the whole arrangement. It seems to me they ought to disapprove of the idea, being that Calormen is essentially an enemy country and worships the god Tash? Surely Peter and Edmund wouldn't want Susan to end up in that sort of environment.

DamselJillPole wrote: I always wonder and worry about how they are going to go about the Caspian/Liliandil relationship in SC, actually most of all with Liliandil. It's a given that Suspian fans will cheer in crowded theaters when she dies. 8-|

However they didn't build up her personality enough in Dawn Treader for people to even like her so to be honest if they don't do this at last minute in SC no one will care and to be honest I probably wont and this makes me sad because I want to feel sorry for these movie characters.

I am hoping to see a marriage and some romantic flashbacks of Caspian and Liliandil. Or even have Liliandil with Aslan after Caspian dies and we can see them reunite in Aslan's Country.


I think the idea of flashbacks of Caspian and Lilliandil (for a movie adaptation of SC) would be absolutely perfect. VDT was way too rushed of a movie as a whole. (I was disappointed with the ending in that it didn't show or give any sort of teasers as to what happened to Caspian after the Pevensies and Eustace returned to England. Even if the filmmakers hadn't wanted to go too heavy on the romance, I believe some sort of foreshadowing with Lilliandil would have been very much appropriate.

As it is, I think flashbacks in SC is a very good idea. There is the part of the book where the Owls have to fill Eustace and Jill in on Caspian and Rilian's entire story. In the book, C.S. Lewis essentially uses the same style of flashing back to previous events as he uses in Prince Caspian when Trumpkin is telling the Pevensies about Caspian. The 2008 movie adaptation of PC didn't use flashbacks; rather, it showed things as they happened. I believe it would be really neat to see the same sort of thing happen in a movie adaptation of SC.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Jul 06, 2013 5:06 pm

shastastwin wrote:However, we are all forgetting the most important thing: in LB, Jill is said to have "fallen in love" with Jewel. What do we make of that? ;)


That is why I do not understand why people pair Jill with anybody. Lewis clearly states that Jill has "fallen in love" with Jewel so why pair her with anybody else? She would be much too busy thinking about Jewel to think about anybody else.


Movie Aristotle wrote:I'm coming in late to the conversation but I would say that the only romance in Narnia that I would approve of is Caspian and Ramandu's Daughter.

Exactly. Added romance is NOT necessary. Stick with canon. Romance is not required to make a good story or a good movie. I do like the idea of pseudo-romances for Susan and Rabadash and possible LotGK and Rillian ( a small one in both cases).
Movie Aristotle wrote:I don't want a Shasta/Aravis romance for the surprise factor. They bicker so much in the story that them getting married is the last thing you expect, and yet somehow seems to be the only possible way that the story could end. I like how you don't expect it.

I completely agree. I don't want Shasta and/or Aravis clearly having romantic feelings. They're early teens at the latest. I love the way Lewis ends it with them getting married. I hope they can figure out a way to work this line into the movie.
Aravis also had many quarrels (and, I'm afraid, even fights) with Cor, but they always made it up again: so that years later, when they were grown up, they were so used to quarrelling and making it up again that they got married so as to go on doing it more conveniently.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 06, 2013 11:10 pm

Movie Aristotle wrote:There could be a couple pseudo-romances. A film of HHB could show us more of the charming side of Rabadash. Then when we see his true colors the hypocrisy will make him seem all the more dangerous to our heroes.


Precisely. I'd also want to see what is meant by calling Susan, Susan the Gentle. Surely she would be turned off by someone like Rabadash, who treated his underlings cruelly and thoughtlessly. Surely she would have been taken to the temple of Tash to see what might go on there, and surely she could not help but notice how aggressively and arrogantly he might be starting to behave towards her and her entourage, perhaps.

Lady Galadriel wrote:In histories and fictional stories, it's a common thing for people of royalty to marry each other even if not for the purpose of love. I imagine an alliance between Narnia and Calormen (due to the marriage of Narnia's queen to Calormen's crown prince) could be greatly beneficial to both countries. This would explain why a marriage was being considered between the two in the first place.


Yes, and there are often repercussions in such arranged marriages, even if the couple managed to fall in love, anyway. Marie Antoinette wasn't just hated in France because she was the extravagant wife of an incompetent king. She was also a hated foreign princess whose country of birth opposed France. And other couples were often desperately unhappy, however well their marriages served national purposes.

I agree that Rabadash and Susan being married might have been beneficial to both countries, but rather more beneficial to Calormen and the Tisroc than it would be to Narnia. However, I doubt that Peter or Edmund would try to tell Susan how to live her life and whom she was to marry.

Lady Galadriel wrote:Although now that I think of it, it seems that it would be odd for Narnia to want any sort of alliance with Calormen. Unfortunately I haven't read the book in too long to be able to recall exactly what Peter and Edmund thought about the whole arrangement. It seems to me they ought to disapprove of the idea, being that Calormen is essentially an enemy country and worships the god Tash? Surely Peter and Edmund wouldn't want Susan to end up in that sort of environment.


Peter put on entertainment albeit of a military nature, to keep Rabadash and his entourage amused whilst Edmund later hinted that he didn't think much of Rabadash, who seemed to think his marrying Susan was a foregone conclusion once she arrived in Tashbaan, with Edmund escorting her. I expect both Peter and Edmund wanted to hear what Rabadash had to say and what was in it for him. Rabadash's reaction to their leaving told them all they needed to know, as well as what Aravis could tell them later on.

I'm not sure that Jill falling in love with Jewel would stop her falling in love with other people. I've fallen in love with my cats but don't necessarily stop loving my family. ;)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby De_De » Jul 07, 2013 10:19 am

Lady Galadriel wrote:Although now that I think of it, it seems that it would be odd for Narnia to want any sort of alliance with Calormen. Unfortunately I haven't read the book in too long to be able to recall exactly what Peter and Edmund thought about the whole arrangement. It seems to me they ought to disapprove of the idea, being that Calormen is essentially an enemy country and worships the god Tash? Surely Peter and Edmund wouldn't want Susan to end up in that sort of environment.

I know what you mean, and I was thinking about it recently and from what we see Susan is a soft person. She might have at first seen Rabadash and fairly liked him, but then when she saw the true him she realised that she didn't want to be his wife, but she didn't want to say no, not to offend him or whatever. And Peter and Edmund probably didn't like the engagement at all, but they just wanted their sister to be happy. Because if she did actually love him and they would forbid any such alliance, it would be very cruel to her. That is why they visited Caloremen to see if they should make such an alliance or not.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Meltintalle » Jul 07, 2013 2:13 pm

I wouldn't put Jewel in quite the same category as a pet. He's an accomplished warrior. Another spin on the idea would be to say that their relationship was that of a knight and his lady. Just think of all the epic Narnian poetry that could have resulted!

(Jill also states that she 'loves disguises'. Methinks she might be a touch unreliable in her use of the word 'love'. ;) )
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Ithilwen » Jul 13, 2013 4:21 am

DamselJillPole wrote:In chapter 12 Jill didn't even react to the situation where Eustace was being dragged and thrown into the stable door. Only Tirian and the Jewel reacted to it.

I'm not sure why you would say this... She definitely did react. :-\ In Chapter 12, it mentions that Jill was crying a good deal when Eustace was pulled into the stable.
"Even if I can't stop blubbing, I won't get my string wet," she said.

Not that this confirms that Jill was in love with him, since she would have reacted the same way if any of her friends had gone through the stable. But she certainly wasn't apathetic about it.

Unless you're referring to the fact she didn't go and try to rescue him. Although, why she didn't try to rescue him is a question we have to ask ourselves, whether she had romantic feelings for him or not. After all, when one of our friends is in danger, we wouldn't just sit back and not help them simply because our feelings toward them are platonic. ;)) Most of us would try to save all of our loved ones - romantic and non-romantic. If one of my guy friends was in trouble, the fact that he's just a friend would not at all hold me back from trying to save him. So the fact that Jill didn't actively try to save him says nothing about whether her feelings toward him are romantic or not. But it does pose an interesting question. Why didn't she try to save him? I think it's probably because either 1.) She was too surprised by the situation to react quickly enough. 2.) She didn't think she would be able to help, because the one putting Eustace into the stable was bigger than her. Or 3.) She saw Tirian and Jewel already trying to help him, and thought that would be sufficient.


I remembered you saying something that made you think Jill was nervous around Eustace during the battle however I didn't see anything like that.

The part I was referring to was in Chapter Seven:

Chapter Seven wrote:Jill, besides being disgusted with the Dwarfs, was very impressed with Eustace's victory over the Calormene and felt almost shy.

It's a vague passage. Basically, all it means is that, when Jill saw Eustace's victory over the Calormene, it changed the way she viewed/thought/felt about him in some way. Whether that way is romantic at all, or whether it's strictly an increase of admiration and respect, is up to the reader.

Anyone can say they think the meaning of that passage is romantic in nature. Anyone can say it isn't romantic in nature. Anyone can say that, had the two of them lived, they would have become a couple. Anyone can say that, had the two of them lived, they wouldn't have become a couple. In the end, it's all speculation. All we know from the books is that Jill's opinion of Eustace changed in some way, and that both of them (along with the other Friends of Narnia) did not live. And that's all we need to know, really. The Narnia books aren't about relationships and shipping. As fun as it is shipping Friends of Narnia with each other and other characters, that's all it is: fun. Supposals and things for fans to speculate about. The only way a ship is actually canon is if the author comes out in the story and states it as canon somehow. Since Lewis didn't do that with any of the Friends of Narnia, none of the ships are canon in the full sense of the word.

I wasn't trying to say that a romantic relationship between Eustace and Jill was canon in the books. Especially not canon in the overt way, such as with Caspian and Ramandu's Daughter, where we are told by the author that the two characters are in love/in a relationship. Lewis never came out and said they were a couple, therefore they weren't. If we were able to ask Lewis if Jill was in love with Eustace, and he said no, it wouldn't surprise me at all. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was that, in the films, if we absolutely have to have an added romance in the movie, I would rather it be something like Eustace/Jill, because then it would at least have something in the books to tie it to.

Let me take Susan and Caspian for example. Obviously, their relationship was not canon. But even more than that, I don't remember there being anything between the two of them in the books that could even be perceived as romantic, even when looking at it from different angles, or twisting certain passages. It was completely the invention of the filmmakers. Whereas, with that passage about Jill feeling shy around Eustace - it doesn't make a romantic relationship between them canon - but it is at least something that the reader could perceive as romantic if looking at it from a certain angle. Therefore, if we had to have a non-canon romance in the movies, something like Eustace/Jill would make more sense to me than something like Susan/Caspian. Because - even though both relationships are non-canon and were brought into the story by the filmmakers - at least there's a passage in the canon that we could say might have sparked the idea for Eustace/Jill in the movie. Whereas, we can't say that at all for Susan/Caspian: the filmmakers took that out of thin air. In other words, if we have to have non-canon things, I would rather have those non-canon things be at least somewhat based on or inspired by canon.

Does that make more sense?


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Re: Pairings?

Postby DamselJillPole » Jul 13, 2013 6:05 pm

I understand what you now mean. I respect your opinion on your perceiving outlook.

However I thought different. The part where Jill is crying, I already knew about that in the chapter but I perceived it as how everything was getting very intense in that moment. She even mourned over many other things that were happening. Yes you're right about my saying that she didn't react about trying to save Eustace. I just thought that if I were in Jill's situation I'd run out to my friend. I remember her accidently shooting down other Narnian's so maybe she didn't fight back for her friend because she was scared she might hit him and not one of the calormenes. This gives me a new perspective. but would I perceive it as romantic? No. It would be the same reaction if my best friend was being dragged off. No romantic feelings attached, just frightened for my friend. ;)

As for her feeling shy, I perceived it as a startle. It did say she was impressed to but mainly I think she was a bit surprised by it. I was this way with my best friend yesterday as he gave a great load of advice, I was very impressed by it and startled that it came from him because it was a huge help but did I perceive it like I can be romantic with him? No.

However the way I perceive it and how you may read what i said probably won't change your opinions. Just like opinions I have on Jill's blushing around Tirian, Tirian not answering Scrubb's question and instead slips his arm around Jill to comfort her, and in chapter 7 I loved how Jill was backing up with Tirian while they were trying to convince the dwarves, Tirian's wonderful compliments about Jill (Even though Eustace did too however I perceived that as a safe high five compliment), there were many others and I can go on and on. However I believe that the second thing I said could easily be perceived as something romantic between Jill and Tirian.

Again I'm not saying that your perception is wrong Ithilwen. I respect it and I acknowledge that both are not canon since CS Lewis said nothing about both parties, it's just i believe that Jill and Tirian could be worked out more because there is so much more there. ;)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby coracle » Jul 13, 2013 8:31 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote: At the end of SC (book) Jill goes to a party where she wears her Narnian get-up.
What if that party was Susan's engagement party? To a much younger Caspian look-alike perhaps? .....
Rabadash? Wasn't that sort of scenario hinted at in Lucy's beauty spell in VDT? I can see how on some such occasion that Susan might say things like "fancy you remembering those funny games we played as children", that she would be too busy with wedding plans and socialising to give Jill the time of day, that she would be too happy flashing around her gorgeous engagement ring to be interested in meetings to discuss Narnia, and that Polly Plummer, if she was there, would have some grounds for her LB comments?

I can't see this at all. Polly and Jill would SAY something much more specific if Susan was engaged, rather than that Susan is only interested in nylons and lipstick and invitations.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 14, 2013 4:26 am

coracle wrote:I can't see this at all. Polly and Jill would SAY something much more specific if Susan was engaged, rather than that Susan is only interested in nylons and lipstick and invitations.


But Polly did say something more specific than an interest in nylons, lipstick and invitations. She said that Susan had wasted her education to get to the silliest time of one's life, and would try to stay that age as long as possible, and that she wished Susan really would grow up. Jill also said that Susan was rather too keen on being grown up. And both Eustace and Peter also had something to say, that Susan was no longer a friend of Narnia, and that whenever Peter wanted to get her to come to meetings she would say "fancy their remembering those games...." When rereading that bit I got the impression that whatever had been going on had been going on for some time, and that Susan had been evading the 7 friends of Narnia. And I wondered why. It all depends on how much time elapsed between the end of Silver Chair and Last Battle, when Susan was missing from the meeting of the Friends of Narnia, Tirian had attended.

According to the Focus on the Family Radio Drama of the Last Battle, C.S.Lewis did not feel he could write any more Narnia books, and that if he tried it would be forced and wouldn't work. Last Battle is supposed to tie things up, with the destruction of Calormen, the 7 friends of Narnia in a train crash, even Mr & Mrs Pevensie being killed in that train crash, but Susan being conspicuously left alive. C.S.Lewis did say that Susan had grown into a vain and silly young woman, but might mend in her own time and in her own way. If he had said anything more than that you'd have people looking for her all over the place and demanding a sequel.

Jill and the rest wouldn't mention a further character if C.S.Lewis didn't want to write a sequel, especially if they feared the further character was part of the problem, which was specifically Susan denying that Narnia had any reality, that they had only been playing games as children, and that for some reason she wanted to forget all about it. Rabadash would definitely be one such reason.
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