Pairings?

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Re: Pairings?

Postby King_Erlian » Jul 31, 2012 4:42 am

DamselJillPole wrote:The Last Battle takes place 7 years after The Silver Chair. Jill Pole would already grew up by then.


When Eustace and Jill arrive in Narnia in "The Last Battle", Eustace says to King Tirian:
C.S.Lewis wrote:"I'm Eustace Scrubb and this is Jill Pole," said the Boy. "And we were here
once before, ages and ages ago, more than a year ago by our time, and there
was a chap called Prince Rilian, and they were keeping this chap
underground, and Puddleglum put his foot in -"


So "The Last Battle" takes place over a year, but by implication less than two years, after "The Silver Chair". If it had been seven years then Eustace would have said so.

However, if you add up the times between the trips to Narnia:

From LWW to PC: 1 year (we're told at the beginning of PC)
From PC to VDT: 1 year (Edmund tells Caspian)
From VDT to SC: a few weeks (Eustace tells Jill that his adventure happened during the school holidays, and elsewhere Lewis tells us that they still had 11 weeks of a 13-week school term to come)
From SC to LB: over a year

That makes a total of 3-and-a-bit years (say 3 and a half). But in that time, all the Pevensies have grown up enough to have left school. The minimum school-leaving age in England at that time was 15, so in LWW Lucy must have been 11 or 12. Yet we're given the impression that she was quite a bit younger, and the Walden film certainly shows her to be younger than that.

Then again, Lewis always said that maths wasn't his subject. ;)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Varnafinde » Jul 31, 2012 3:00 pm

King_Erlian wrote:Then again, Lewis always said that maths wasn't his subject. ;)


Not only that, but when he wrote the timeline which is often used, I think he cannot be checking it against what he had already said in the books. He places LB in 1949, and it doesn't add up (literally) with what Eustace says in your quote.

Perhaps he meant to edit it for later editions of the books - or maybe he just didn't think of it.

But it does make it more difficult to work out how old the Pevensies are at any given time.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Narnian_Badger » Jul 31, 2012 8:51 pm

King_Erlian wrote:When Eustace and Jill arrive in Narnia in "The Last Battle", Eustace says to King Tirian:
C.S.Lewis wrote:"I'm Eustace Scrubb and this is Jill Pole," said the Boy. "And we were here
once before, ages and ages ago, more than a year ago by our time, and there
was a chap called Prince Rilian, and they were keeping this chap
underground, and Puddleglum put his foot in -"

...Hum, I'd forgotten about that quote. That is slightly problematic. Well, Lewis says specifically that Tirian "was between the ages of twenty and twenty-five", and then later says "he who sat at the right hand of the old man was hardly full grown, certainly younger than Tirian himself..." in reference to Peter. A couple pages later, your quote comes along, and then two pages after that, Eustace says "[Polly and I] were the only two who are still at school." This would mean Lucy would have to be at least 15, if not 16, which would make Peter... I think about 19, 20? This would sort of add up, but it does not make sense for Lucy to be 12 in LWW. She doesn't act like it at all. :/
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Re: Pairings?

Postby DamselJillPole » Aug 01, 2012 9:44 am

As Varnafinde mentioned above CS Lewis worked on a timeline and Last Battle obviously takes place in 1949, 7 years later from TSC and it was mentioned as well that he was going to rewrite or edit the stories he currently wrote. That's a fact somewhere on this site or google it.

Well I feel like mentioning that a page I moderate with a few other people on facebook for King Tirian and Jill Pole fans broke over 100 fans last night. :ymapplause: So yeah I'm very happy about that today :D
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Re: Pairings?

Postby GlimGlum » Aug 01, 2012 10:43 am

Moderator Note: This thread is straying a bit from its subject with the Narnian timeline posts. Please return to the subject of "Pairings?". Thank you very much. :)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Ithilwen » Jul 01, 2013 9:37 pm

When I was younger (and I'm sure some of you still remember), I was a big supporter of Eustace/Jill. ;))

I'm not so much anymore. I think the main point of the all the relationships in general between the characters is one of enduring friendship. Although, if I had to pick one of the "ships" as the one most likely to be "canon", I would still go with Eustace and Jill. When Eustace starts to show himself as more heroic, the book states that she starts to see him differently and even feels shy around him. Now, whether this different outlook on him is a romantic one or not is up for debate. But it is at least something canon the filmmakers could interpret that way and use if they really wanted to.

I don't have anything against romance being in the movies, as long as it's done right. Although, the important thing is to get the thematic elements correct, along with the character's natures/personalities. As long as those are in tact, I'm good. ;)


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Re: Pairings?

Postby DamselJillPole » Jul 02, 2013 12:23 pm

I agree what you said about Jill and Eustace's friendship Ithilwen. I will admit that for maybe a week while I first read the Silver Chair i thought of putting them together but once I got to reading Last Battle I instantly became in love with the idea of Tirian/Jill.

I don't agree that Jill and Eustace would be canon because CS Lewis did say that the two were always friends at the end of SC. I believe CS Lewis meant them to just be friends and not ever romantically involved. Their friendship is too strong for them to ever become more then what they are and Eustace acting heroic around Jill just goes to show in real friendships that your best friend will always have your back no matter what.

I'm done with my say however since this is on topic my page for Jill/Tirian on facebook has reached over 200 fans this week. Last time I looked it was at 211 fans :)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby De_De » Jul 02, 2013 2:07 pm

I was never a real fan of Eustace and Jill, but now I understand that Lewis makes a point that they were friends.
I was never really to keen about Jill and Tirian, but I have nothing against it, I just have my own theories. But I first want to re-read the Last Battle before I write them here :)

I remember when reading MN I was very disappointed that Polly and Digory didn't get together :( They seemed to be such a great couple. Any other supporters of that idea?
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Louloudi the Centaur » Jul 02, 2013 4:14 pm

Relationships are very vital to the story. Whether that be brother and sister, cousin and cousin, best friends, or husband and wife, interactions between characters are important.

What I do hate is when writers just making characters fall in love just to fall in love. It's very soppy and often detracts from the conflict. If characters do fall in love, it should be for a certain reason. Do they have similar characteristics? Beliefs? Backgrounds?

As said before, this is why I love Narnia. Romance is not a driving part of the plots. I just love it when friends just remain friends, and these friends do not happen to fall in love with the cousins of the friend.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby Ithilwen » Jul 02, 2013 7:47 pm

DamselJillPole wrote:I don't agree that Jill and Eustace would be canon because CS Lewis did say that the two were always friends at the end of SC.

What I meant was that it could be argued that Jill holding romantic feelings toward Eustace could be interpreted as canon. This would not undo the fact that they were always friends. There are many people who have held romantic feelings toward one another, but nothing ever came of it, and they always remained friends. This would especially be true in the case of Eustace and Jill because, even if she did truly have romantic feelings toward him, their relationship did not get the chance to change since
they both died soon after that.



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Re: Pairings?

Postby DamselJillPole » Jul 03, 2013 10:31 am

I agree De_De and Louloudi

And Ithilwen I'm going to have to agree to disagree. There's really nothing vital to support that Jill has romantic feelings for Eustace. I don't understand the part in the book which you are talking about however it doesn't influence me enough when I reread chapters 10-14 last night and this morning. I remember the other chapters very well. I can't find anything that supports that Jill has feelings for Eustace.

In chapter 12 Jill didn't even react to the situation where Eustace was being dragged and thrown into the stable door. Only Tirian and the Jewel reacted to it.

I remembered you saying something that made you think Jill was nervous around Eustace during the battle however I didn't see anything like that. Therefore I find any romantic attraction between them pointless and uncanon. They should stay as caring, I have your back, friends.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby shastastwin » Jul 03, 2013 10:49 am

I don't think Jill and Eustace had quite reached the point where they would have developed romantic feelings for anyone, much less each other, though I admit I've always thought they would have grown to explore the possibility of a romantic relationship had they grown to adulthood.

However, we are all forgetting the most important thing: in LB, Jill is said to have "fallen in love" with Jewel. What do we make of that? ;)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby DamselJillPole » Jul 03, 2013 11:06 am

Yeah well I'm going to stand by what Lewis wrote. "Theye were always friends." even if they had survived the train wreck and reached adulthood I would have the same opinion as the writer. 'They will always be friends, and nothing more.
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Re: Pairings?

Postby shastastwin » Jul 03, 2013 1:14 pm

I won't argue the fact that there's nothing explicit in the books to say Eustace and Jill would have been romantically involved. That wasn't often in Lewis' purview in the Narniad. I also agree that authors often add romance between characters purely to have romance and not because the character make sense as a couple. However, to return to the topic at hand, I would like to point out that (for Eustace and Jill) their being lifelong friends doesn't preclude any romantic possibilities. In fact, many married couples start out as friends and continue that friendship for many years into their marriage. For a Narnian example of this, see Shasta and Aravis. So, while Lewis doesn't say that Jill and Eustace would have or might have become a romantic couple, he also doesn't completely rule out the possibility (at least not with his comment about their always being friends). :)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby DamselJillPole » Jul 03, 2013 4:40 pm

The difference between my opinion and your opinion is that I'm not comparing Eustace and Jill to real life situation. The real life situation doesn't help me because I don't know anyone who has married their childhood sweethearts, i've been best friends with a guy since grade school meaning Kindergarten and he and I never loved each other that way and we still don't.

Back to my point, I see your point of view however since they are not real people I'm going to see and base judgments on how I see them in the book and not think about 'What ifs' when I only see them as friends and just that for life. Girls do need those guy friends that they're just friends with you know. ;)
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Re: Pairings?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 03, 2013 8:06 pm

Fair point, DamselJillPole. :D I can see how that sort of relationship you had with your friend from Grade School (Primary school as I understand it?) would match something like we learn about Polly and Digory who were friends for life but specifically did not marry.

On the other hand, C.S.Lewis in HHB allowed Aravis and Shasta to first become friends before eventually marrying. By that time they had grown up enough to appreciate each other's friendship and trustworthiness even if they argued still. And I could agree that if Jill and Eustace had been allowed longer to live, they, too, might have eventually developed romantic feelings for each other. The relationship Jill and Eustace had in LB is far different, from the armed truce they had in SC. In Last Battle, Eustace even admires Jill, even gushing to Tirian how skilled she is in finding their way.

Louloudi the Centaur wrote:Relationships are very vital to the story. Whether that be brother and sister, cousin and cousin, best friends, or husband and wife, interactions between characters are important.

What I do hate is when writers just making characters fall in love just to fall in love. It's very soppy and often detracts from the conflict. If characters do fall in love, it should be for a certain reason. Do they have similar characteristics? Beliefs? Backgrounds?

As said before, this is why I love Narnia. Romance is not a driving part of the plots. I just love it when friends just remain friends, and these friends do not happen to fall in love with the cousins of the friend.


No, and I think that the little C.S.Lewis says about relationships in general goes a long way to explain his views of romance and marriage. The way Aravis and Shasta became friends was in learning to work together as equals, and to start to respect and trust each other as equals. There is something inherently unequal when a girl marries an older man, who might try to dominate her on this ground alone.

This can be the case even if it wasn't a revolting old man like Ahosta, practically buying a young girl like Aravis to own. And when you comment about "writers just making characters fall in love just to fall in love", I am wondering the downside of this sort of phenomenon is what C.S.Lewis is commenting about when he has Susan deluded into almost accepting Rabadash's hand in marriage. There she was, looking at pictures of would be suitors at the end of LWW, then being swayed by flattery and courtesy in Cair Paravel in HHB into visiting Rabadash at Tashbaan.

Rabadash was very much the "tall, dark and handsome" stranger that Susan, as a girl of her age would be led by 'grown-ups' to see as a suitable romantic figure, if she believed the sort of instant, whirlwind romances of WW2 movies and radio serials. But Susan really needed to realise what sort of person Rabadash was when he was at home in Tashbaan, before Edmund could get her to see why she should flee from there ASAP.

I wonder if this is really Susan's problem in LB, that she wanted to forget the lessons of Rabadash when she told Eustace, "fancy your remembering those funny games we played as children". I'm wondering if she represents those who "want to fall in love just for the sake of falling in love", maybe with another stranger like Rabadash, probably someone older than herself, and never mind what the consequences might be if she married for the sake of marrying, perhaps someone whose values, background and characteristics might be wildly different from her own.
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