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History nerds hangout

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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 16, 2009 8:11 pm

GeorgieFan: you've been to all those camps? What were they like? :-s And what do you like about World War II? :p

I know a little Dutch history. I know they "discovered" New York. Didn't NYC belong to them at some point? And I know they rivaled the British fleet in the 16th and 17th centuries. I read about a few naval encounters between the two countries. I also know the Brits started their empire to rival the Dutch's, you know the "East India Company." ;) Of course for the Dutch, the company was in Java or Sumatra or something. For the Brits, India. And in the early 1600s, some pilgrims left England for the Netherlands on their way to America. But it occurred to me a few years ago that the reason some contemporary Brits didn't like this, even though the Dutch were friendly, was because of the heated rivalry between them and the Dutch. :(

Shadowlander wrote:My family is Dutch on my father's side. At some point in the distant past my family owned a lot of land in upstate New York but it's all gone now except for one road with our name on it (which my mom snapped a picture of back in the 70's...it's funny to look at).
Very cool, Shadow. B-)
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby smartypants » Oct 17, 2009 12:29 pm

220chrisTian wrote:Gettysburg? Oh yes! About half a dozen times! It's my favorite battlefield. I prefer it to Antietam and Shiloh, my other favs. smartypants, have you been to Eisenhower's place near there? I toured it a summer or two ago. :)


220chrisTian, I have been to Eisenhower's place! It's amazing and so beautiful! Did you enjoy it?
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 17, 2009 1:08 pm

smartypants: I did enjoy the place but it's been awhile since I've visited it of course. So I'm going on memory. I thought the home's location was ideal and really peaceful. The whole visit was peaceful. The bright colors inside the house helped. What did you think of the tiny golf course? ;)
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Gmatt » Oct 18, 2009 8:50 pm

220chrisTian wrote:GeorgieFan
I know a little Dutch history. I know they "discovered" New York. Didn't NYC belong to them at some point? And I know they rivaled the British fleet in the 16th and 17th centuries. I read about a few naval encounters between the two countries. I also know the Brits started their empire to rival the Dutch's, you know the "East India Company." ;) Of course for the Dutch, the company was in Java or Sumatra or something. For the Brits, India. And in the early 1600s, some pilgrims left England for the Netherlands on their way to America. But it occurred to me a few years ago that the reason some contemporary Brits didn't like this, even though the Dutch were friendly, was because of the heated rivalry between them and the Dutch. :(


The Dutch were the original settlers of New York, yes, but it was swapped to Great Britain for something I cannot remember now,the Island of Run according to Wikipedia.

The Honourable East India Company wasn't founded to rival the Dutch, at least not specifically, but they were rivals, yes, but so were the French and Portuguese.
In general though, because of their common Protestant heritage and a few other factors, after the Anglo-Dutch wars, the British and Dutch Empires were generally on the same side where possible. It was in British interests for the Low Countries to remain independent from any large rivals, the Channel ports in the hands of France or another major European nation would have facilitated an attempt to remove the superiority at sea the Royal Navy had acquired by the mid 1700s. This is what prompted the abortive attempt to support the Netherlands against Napoleon, and even our entrance into the Great War.
It did not hurt that William III came from the Netherlands, and the famous campaigns of the Duke of Marlborough were fought on behalf of the Netherlands. (And you guys say the American Civil War had some fancy marching and fighting. ;) )

The Empire itself wasn't exactly founded to rival anything either, it was rather accidentally and haphazardly acquired, only a few things like Aden, Gibraltar, Malta, and some parts of India, plus islands for coaling stations, were picked up for strategical use, mainly to guard the routes to India. The Suez Canal also comes to mind in that category.

The Dutch had some possessions in India also, Ceylon stands out, it only being taken over by the British when the Netherlands came under Napoleonic rule. The borders in the Indonesia area were only settled in the 1820s with the British swapping their small possessions in Sumatra for exclusive rights on the Malay peninsula. But you are right, the Dutch were the major presence in the area, Sumatra, Java, the southern portion of Borneo and other smaller holdings, the British being next with northern Borneo, Malay, Singapore Island and so on.

The Dutch were fine seafarers though to be sure, but being overrun by Napoleon and consequently aligned against the United Kingdom and the Royal Navy certainly didn't help matters.
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby lostin1800 » Oct 19, 2009 9:08 am

I'm currently studying Modern Medicine as the final unit in a course called medicine through time. So we have yet to learn about WW1,WW2 and today's medical world.

the topic so far has been so interesting(then again nothing in history fails to interest me-minus weapon history) I can't wait to continue this!
*We three kings of Orient are; bearing gifts we traverse afar, field and fountain, moor and mountain, following yonder star...*
~Merry Christmas From Lostin1800~
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Gmatt: thanks for all the info on the Dutch and British! You really know your stuff, don't you? ;) I'm also interested in imperial history but it's confined to the 19th century, and mostly the British. :)

Btw, love the avatar. :p
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Gmatt » Oct 20, 2009 7:52 pm

220chrisTian wrote:Gmatt: thanks for all the info on the Dutch and British! You really know your stuff, don't you? ;) I'm also interested in imperial history but it's confined to the 19th century, and mostly the British. :)

Btw, love the avatar. :p


Well I cannot say I know all that much, just that I only recently put a few hours into Dutch Empire research for something I am participating in, and a handful of years for the British Empire (Well, actually ten, but it wasn't until the last five years or so that I got very serious) but thank you for the compliment. :)
British Empire History from 1707 until about the Korean war is my interest, with extra attention from between 1789 and 1945, and special mention to English history before the Union, I am glad to here there are more of us out there!

Regarding the avvy, cannot say its all that good, I made it myself, but it represents me fairly well I suppose. :p
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 20, 2009 9:51 pm

Gmatt wrote:Well I cannot say I know all that much, just that I only recently put a few hours into Dutch Empire research for something I am participating in, and a handful of years for the British Empire (Well, actually ten, but it wasn't until the last five years or so that I got very serious) but thank you for the compliment.
I guess I've been interested in the British Empire ever since I read Kipling's Kim in 2000. My specialty is British imperial literature and history, c.1850-1914. :) This is the subject of my dissertation, in the works since 2005 or 2006. ;) Pray I finish... :p
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Gmatt » Oct 21, 2009 7:29 am

220chrisTian wrote:
Gmatt wrote:Well I cannot say I know all that much, just that I only recently put a few hours into Dutch Empire research for something I am participating in, and a handful of years for the British Empire (Well, actually ten, but it wasn't until the last five years or so that I got very serious) but thank you for the compliment.
I guess I've been interested in the British Empire ever since I read Kipling's Kim in 2000. My specialty is British imperial literature and history, c.1850-1914. :) This is the subject of my dissertation, in the works since 2005 or 2006. ;) Pray I finish... :p


I find it extraordinarily interested myself, and oft misjudged by people in general who focus on the unfortunate incidents, blow them out of proportion, make them sound like they are the norm and ignore the facts of era they were set in!

I am more a history type person, opposed to literature, although my sister convinced my to try my hand at this National Novel Writing Month thing and I am setting up something during the Boxer Rebellion, Sir Roger Keyes being the main character. His actual story through that 'war' sounds like it was contrived, but it wasn't. :p
Who knows how it will go though.

But it is curious how one little thing can get you started. Back 12 years or so, when I was 7 or 8, my parents took me and my family to a re-enaction of a battle in the War of 1812, and I haven't looked back since, it is just quite fascinating, and saddening at times too. (I think our Canadian political and justice systems, not to mention the British ones, has degenerated a lot from a peak in the late 1800s and early 1900s...)
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 21, 2009 6:42 pm

Gmatt wrote:I find it extraordinarily interested myself, and oft misjudged by people in general who focus on the unfortunate incidents, blow them out of proportion, make them sound like they are the norm and ignore the facts of era they were set in!
Thank you for this! Someone in a certain Narnia and Christianity thread did something similar when I mentioned missionary work in colonial settings. /:)

Gmatt wrote:I am more a history type person, opposed to literature, although my sister convinced my to try my hand at this National Novel Writing Month thing and I am setting up something during the Boxer Rebellion, Sir Roger Keyes being the main character. His actual story through that 'war' sounds like it was contrived, but it wasn't. :p Who knows how it will go though.
Well, I like history and literature. ;) Boxer Rebellion, eh? Sounds interesting! I haven't read any literature on this, since my focus is Africa and India. But I have read short biographies of J. Hudson Taylor and Jonathan and Rosalind Goforth. They escaped the Boxer Rebellion. What do you know of them? :) National Novel Writing Month? Good luck! I can't even write short stories. :p
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Gmatt » Oct 21, 2009 8:15 pm

220chrisTian wrote: Thank you for this! Someone in a certain Narnia and Christianity thread did something similar when I mentioned missionary work in colonial settings. /:)


The techniques were not as refined as they are today (And you cannot blame them entirely for that) but I personally think that our culture at that time was better, so while you don't need to rub it in, trying to remove disgusting practices is hardly a bad thing at all. /:)

220chrisTian wrote:Well, I like history and literature. ;) Boxer Rebellion, eh? Sounds interesting! I haven't read any literature on this, since my focus is Africa and India. But I have read short biographies of J. Hudson Taylor and Jonathan and Rosalind Goforth. They escaped the Boxer Rebellion. What do you know of them? :) National Novel Writing Month? Good luck! I can't even write short stories. :p


Hudson Taylor, quite the man of God. I read a biography on him when I was younger (I ought to read it again) but he was something else..
I have heard of the Goforths but I don't know them well at all.
But seeing as the Boxer Uprising had a few thousand Chinese Christian and Missionary deaths, (Because they were Christian) it certainly has a certain draw. Not, of course, that I like to hear about Christians sacrificing their lives, but it certainly showed their temerity, as well as proving beyond a shadow of a doubt it was an unfair expedition on the part of the Europeans.
I have not read extensively of it, but I know the basics now, and it sounds like a very interesting setting, I just hope I can do it justice. It will be my first attempt at anything of the sort, so we shall see how it goes.

Edit: Just a note of interest, but at the moment your post count is '666'. :p
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 21, 2009 8:31 pm

Gmatt wrote:
220chrisTian wrote: Thank you for this! Someone in a certain Narnia and Christianity thread did something similar when I mentioned missionary work in colonial settings. /:)
The techniques were not as refined as they are today (And you cannot blame them entirely for that) but I personally think that our culture at that time was better, so while you don't need to rub it in, trying to remove disgusting practices is hardly a bad thing at all. /:)
Wow. You really misunderstood me. :( I completely agree with your statement that "trying to remove disgusting practices is hardly a bad thing at all." And I'm trying to defend it in my diss, "Christian missionaries in British colonial fiction, 1870-1914." :) All the person in the N&C thread did was mention all the bad things Christians did in European and colonial settings, without mentioning any good things or even good intentions carried out in not-so-good ways. Someone had to defend missionaries! /:)

Gmatt wrote:Edit: Just a note of interest, but at the moment your post count is '666'. :p
I know. See my newest thread in the General Movies Discussion. 8-|
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Gmatt » Oct 21, 2009 8:38 pm

I am sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you at all, and I didn't think you were saying anything I disagreed with, I was replying more to what you had implied someone had said elsewhere, or more what people in general said.
I apologise if my tone was harsh or anything, sometimes I can sound something I don't mean to.
(I find so few people that actually agree with me anymore on things of this sort I certainly do not want to seem annoyed at the ones who do! :P )

I am certainly glad you were brave enough to defend the missionaries, and I personally think that Christianity was a major driving force in especially the British/American societies and hence the reason why they were successful, and to a very large extent, good. I consider Canadian culture, and Australian/New Zealand for that matter, British up until the late 1950s, our differences were just family differences, nothing more, and you wouldn't believe how I wish it was still the same...
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Georgiefan » Oct 22, 2009 11:24 am

I'm impressed that you all know so mucht about the Netherlands during the 16th and 17th Century. I'll tell you some things too.

Dutchmen settled themselves on the area which is now New York. We called it Nieuw-Amsterdam (English: New Amsterdam). At the end of the 17th Century, Brittain conquered New Amsterdam and turned it into New York. In stead of that, we got Suriname from Brittain. So yes, New York used to be Dutch. That explains the Dutch names in New York, like Brooklyn is from the Dutch town of Breukelen, and Wallstreet is from De Wallen.

The Verenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie (English: East India Company) was founded in 1602 and was an excellent trade companion. They trade herbs in (what is nowadays) Indonesia. We used to call it Indië (English: India), or later Nederlands-Indië (English: Dutch India) because that country became a colony of the Netherlands. In 1621, the West-Indische Compagnie (English: West India Company) was founded and trade in Africa and the New World (America). Unfortunately the Netherlands also took part in the slave trade like Brittain and France did.

The Netherlands had 4 wars with England, the First, Second, Third and Fourth English-Dutch Wars. Michiel the Ruyter, a famous Dutch seafarer won some excellent battles, but there also were battles we couldn't win from the Brits. The Third English War was in 1672. This is also why there was no good relationship between Brittain and the Netherlands at that time.

In 1672, Brittain, France, Keulen and Munster attacked the Netherlands, but we survived and won.

Willem III got the power in the Netherlands from 1672 and also became King of England. And at the end of the 18th Century, France conquered the Netherlands and Napoleon Bonaparte added us with France.


@220ChristTian: Yes, I've been to those camps. They are really impressive to walk through!
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Gmatt » Oct 22, 2009 12:07 pm

The Netherlands is the one continental European country which I have a large admiration for, and an actual like. Perhaps now the Netherlands, along with many other places (My own country for one) has gone a bit too liberal for my tastes, but in history they are, what you could term, my 'favourite' country, outside my own, which was the United Kingdom for all practical purposes, and from a few different perspectives.
The islands in Indonesia for New York swap is actually very similar to when France decided not to take Canada back but instead some islands in the Caribbean (To Canada's great advantage.)

Out of curiosity, what does 'Verenigde' translate into directly? 'Oost-Indische Compagnie' is obviously translated into 'East India Company', but 'Verenigde' seems to be extra, although I am sure it is meant to be there.

The slave trade was certainly a very sad aspect of the era, but while I have heard the claim that "The British Empire was built on the back of slaves", that itself is incorrect, slaves being used pretty much only in the West Indies.
And of course nothing did more to end the Atlantic Slave trade than the Royal Navy.
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Re: History nerds hangout

Postby Faolchú » Oct 22, 2009 4:29 pm

I have a Dutch flatmate...he likes cheese...and he irons shirts...but he does not do dishes. I am afraid that is as far as my knowledge of all things Dutch goes though I hear that Holland is a very nice place to cycle.
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