This forum has been archived. Please visit the new forum at

The White Witch Issue

C. S. Lewis, his worlds, and his faith.

Moderators: coracle, Lady Arwen

Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby smartypie » Feb 28, 2011 5:05 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:I perceive the White Witch as someone who sees people only as numbers who commit the crime and so must do the time. Tough luck and all that. Whereas God's Law sees beyond this to see the potential in each and everyone of us, redeemed by Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, if we are among those whosoever believe in Him. (John 3:16).

Amen and amen. I was pretty sure that that was what you meant. I just wanted to hear it from you. The difference is all in the adjectives, man's vs God's Law. Or even man's perception of God's Law, i. e., what is the spirit of the Law. I appreciate your wisdom and perception. :ymhug:

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Now what has all this to do with Narnia and the White Witch? Everything. And yes, I, too, found VDT inspiring, though to be quite frank the only numbers I feel comfortable with are the intricate workings of the Dewey Decimal Classification system, including 220, the DDC number for the Bible. :p

The Spirit moves in mysterious ways. I did not know that about the Bible. The letter T is the 20th letter. Its standard value is 200. When you combine the ordinal and standard values, you get 220. Our electric poles outside our homes, in the shape of the cross or T, bring in 220 volts of power. There are 92 words in the Bible that = 220. 86 (# of God) in Hebrew and 6 (# of man) in Greek. The first word is "ruwach", the "Spirit" of God in Genesis 1:2. "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." The last is αποδεικνυμι apodeiknumi {ap-od-ike'-noo-mee} from 575 and 1166;; v AV - approve 1, prove 1, set forth 1, show 1; 4 1) to point away from one's self, to point out, show forth, to expose to view, exhibit 2) to declare, to show, to prove what kind of person anyone is, to prove by arguments, demonstrate - found in 1 Cor 4:9

Now "look" at me with a straight face and tell me this is all a coincidence. :D I agree with you. The Bible is all about the "power" of the cross, and all I'm trying to do by sharing the numbers is to help instill a greater sense of awe in the Word of God. " Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word. I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil." Psalm 119:161-162

PS - Took a Benadryl for my sneezing attack and went to bed after midnight. Benadryl normally knocks me out, but something woke me up at 2:20 AM. :-o I laid there for a few minutes, but knew I had to find the answer to the question. I poured over my notes from the last few weeks. This is what I found. Bronze + Star + Rhindon = 220 in the ordinal value. But what is amazing is that "Rock" in the combined or exalted value = 220. There are 24 (8+8+8) verses in Psalms that contain the word "rock". David chose 5 smooth stones out of the brook as he went out to slay Goliath. He only needed the 1st. The 1st verse with rock. Psalm 18:2 "The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower." Aslan = 182 (SV) The 5th verse with rock. Psalm 28:1 "[A Psalm of David.] Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit." 281 is the reflection of 182. The last word that = 281 in the Bible is "Lamb" Rev 5:6 " And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." There are 182 letters in that verse in the original Greek. :-o

Mat 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

Mat 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Peter is petros. Rock is petra.

Dan 2:34 "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." In the NIV, the word is Rock. In verse 45, it says it is cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands.

The "Rock" is Jesus, the word of God personified. Rock (OV) = 47. Aslan (OV) = 47. 47 is the reflection of 74 = the OV of "Jesus". Rock (SV) = 173." Open my eyes!" = 173 [Ps 119.18] " I am the LORD your God" = 173 [Ex 20.2] Rock in the combined value (exalted) = 47+173 = 220.

Again, I say, tell me this is all a coincidence. :D
NarniaWeb Regular
Posts: 28
Joined: Jan 17, 2011
Gender: Male

Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Mar 03, 2011 12:04 am

smartypie wrote:Now "look" at me with a straight face and tell me this is all a coincidence. I agree with you. The Bible is all about the "power" of the cross, and all I'm trying to do by sharing the numbers is to help instill a greater sense of awe in the Word of God.

Yes I can "look" at you and say with a straight face that all this may be a coincidence. Yes, the Bible is all about the 'power' of the Cross. And I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong. I just don't know enough to say convincingly that you are right, and on the whole would prefer to leave that to the experts. Doc Ransome if he is around. :D

The number one reason is that numbers don't really mean all that much to me, even number 1. I loathe mathematics, as important as they are to everyday life, to Science, even in language. I know they are a form of communication explaining how much, how heavy, how light etc etc etc. They are necessary to balance a budget and to know what is the time. My lack of mathematical ability was the despair of my parents, and doing my yearly tax is a true cross to bear, and not because of the necessary social obligation to pay my fair share to community benefit.

My second reason is that yes I can agree that mathematics is a form of language in itself, yet another form of communication like music, French, Latin or Greek, or even Money itself. Einstein once formulated that E=MC squared was something saying "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", though I could be wrong. 8-} I quite agree that physics, in particular, measures processes, relationships, heat, light, sound, properties, causes and effects, usually using mathematics, Greek letters, Latin letters etc. to demonstrate the truth.

Now God knows all these things without my having had to learn them as well as I should have done. #:-s The great Architect of the Universe caused all these relationships, properties, processes etc to be, after all. Without doubt He laughs at our feeble attempts to understand His laws, processes, properties etc, let alone what means he employed to say 'Let there be light'. So like the Ancients, who formulated the Bible in its present form subsequent to 586 BC, and since such lengthy mathematical equations etc are beyond my comprehension, I will agree that all those fancy calculations actually mean the much simpler and shorter phrase: 'Let there be light'. That absolves me of having to explain mathematically or otherwise, just how light came to be. And that is why I have that particular avatar. :p

My third reason is that as part of my professional life of course I do know the relationship of numbers in a library setting. Melville Dewey, whose philosophy was that 'All knowledge is unity', enabled books and other materials in a library to be organised into subject order using numbers. His number for Mathematics was 510, for Astronomy it is 520, for Physics it was 530, and so on. The DDC is a work in progress such has knowledge advanced since the 1800's, and there is a standing committee which now makes the weighty numerical revisions that ultimately drove Melville Dewey to finish his days in a Mental health facility. I fear that to delve too much into mathematics might send me mad also. ;)

I know why 220 equals the Bible, because it was part of Melville Dewey's belief system, his culture and his heritage, and not because of some Biblical textual relationship. But whilst this system has well served the English speaking, nominally Christian world, it doesn't mean that it is similarly useful to non English speakers or to practitioners of other faiths. Nor is it the only library system that has been invented. Visit the Library of Congress and work out how it is arranged.

And what has this to do with the White Witch? Precious little I'm afraid. But I do see the White Witch as someone who could stand at Creation, and understand it all, the processes, the causes, effects and equations included. After all, she knew the Deplorable word. But there is more to life and belief than numbers and physics. There is poetry, love of a good story and symbolism, which might also include numbers, yes. I even venture to think that is what C.S.Lewis meant by both Jadis and Uncle Andrew.

What the White Witch - and Uncle Andrew- failed to understand was the love of life, the poetry, the sublimely beautiful and the joy that was behind the processes, the relationships and numbers etc. Jadis knew the law but not the ethics and values that are also necessary before you dabble in science. She could not see beyond herself and her own desires, or consider the enormity of her using the Deplorable Word. And by the way, 170 is Ethics, 190 is Philosphy, including Professor Kirk's Plato, and 200 is Religion. :D
User avatar
NarniaWeb Zealot
Posts: 8781
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Location: Oz
Gender: Female

Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby smartypie » Mar 03, 2011 1:57 am

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Yes I can "look" at you and say with a straight face that all this may be a coincidence. ...The number one reason is that numbers don't really mean all that much to me. I loathe mathematics,... His number for Mathematics was 510, ... I fear that to delve too much into mathematics might send me mad also. ;)

Fair enough. How about some coincidences for entertainment? :D

You say his number for math was 510. Let's see. The 1st word that = 510 is "Sarai (princess)" and the last is "show". So lets let Sarai show us. Her name first appears in verse # 296. There are 66 letters in that verse. 296 is the value of the 7th word in Gen 1:1 (the earth). BTW, Lilliandil = 296 (combined value). 296 = 8 X 37. Jesus is deeply connected with the # 8 (8 people in Noah's ark is just one). 37 is our body temp in celsius, the most symmetrical #, and one of the prime factors of Gen 1:1 = 2701 = 37 X 73. There are 66 books in the Bible.

Sarai's name is changed to Sarah (noblewoman) in Gen 17:15. Verse # 413. That is PI backwards. :D 4 verses later (Gen 17:19 which has 77 letters), the name Isaac appears. Sarah = 505. Isaac = 208 and his name means "he laughs". Look at the time of my previous post. 5:05 PM =)) I promise you, I did not plan that. :D

There is one verse that = 505 = "For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods." Psalm 95:3

There are 44 words (37 in Hebrew and 7 in Greek) that = 208. 1st is "multiply" found in Gen 3:16 concerning childbearing and last is "pitch or fasten together" found in Heb 8:2 concerning the building of the heavenly tabernacle by Jesus. "He created it" [Is 45.18] = 208. "I will multiply" [Gen 22.17] = 208.

:D :D :D Thank you for your inspiration, Madam Librarian! :D :D :D
NarniaWeb Regular
Posts: 28
Joined: Jan 17, 2011
Gender: Male

Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Lilygloves » May 17, 2011 4:42 pm

I think its a good message that evil will not be completely overcome until the end of time and I support that Christian theme. However, I doubt that was the reason for Tilda Swinton's appearances in PC and VDT. It seems more like the viewers liked the character and she won a lot of awards, which supports the movies. Regarding the WW in the Dark Island, I think that if they had done it differently it would have actually worked. They said the Dark Island was their worst nightmares and pure evil, but then it became temptation (only one of the many plot fallacies in the movie). If the WW really had been about nightmares, it would have worked. After all, the sea serpent apparently appeared because it was Edmund's worst fear. In the Focus on the Family cd, it has a flashback to the WW killing Aslan as Lucy's worst nightmare which makes sense, so I guess it would make even more sense if the WW was Edmund's worst nightmare since she tried to kill him and his family and is basically the worst person in the history of Narnia. However, to have WW as a temptation does not make sense. Edmund defeated the WW in LWW and even sealed the deal in PC when he stabbed her ghost while she tempted Peter. Having her there just did not make sense.
User avatar
NarniaWeb Junkie
Posts: 573
Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Location: A diner
Gender: Female

Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Conina » May 18, 2011 9:13 am

I agree with Lilygloves. The nightmare aspect may have worked but having it be a temptation to Edmund didn't make sense in terms of his character arch from the last two movies.
"Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning." -C.S. Lewis
User avatar
NarniaWeb Junkie
Posts: 556
Joined: Aug 15, 2009
Gender: Female


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests