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How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

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How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby MinotaurforAslan » Dec 16, 2010 3:12 am

This is something that has confused me. If Jadis was given eternal life in MN by eating the apple that gives her her heart's desire, how is she able to be killed in LWW? Or is this just an inconsistency that happened because Lewis wrote MN after LWW?
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby DiGoRyKiRkE » Dec 16, 2010 8:11 am

I don't believe that she was given eternal life. The apple gave her eternal youth.

Jadis wrote:You simpleton! Do you know what that fruit is? It is the apple of youth, the apple of life. I know for I have tasted it, and already I feel such changes in myself that I know I shall never grow old, or die. Eat it boy. Eat it, and you and I shall both live forever and be King and Queen of this whole world, or of your world if we decide to go back there.


I don't think that the apple prevented one from dying, it just stopped the aging process.

Of course, one could also argue that as Aslan was the one who created Narnia (and hence created the apples) that He had power over them (although. . . that then violates the "Would I obey my own rules?" quote from VODT).

Interesting thought.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby Lion's Emblem » Dec 16, 2010 11:12 pm

Well put DiGoRyKiRkE. I'd have to grab my copy of MN (I haven't read it in awhile) for accuracy, but isn't there also something mentioned about only entering the garden through the front gate. Meaning the fruit inside is only worthwhile (or "pure") for those who enter through the gate, not those who enter by the wrong means (or those who use the fruit for the wrong means). I always saw it as Jadis climbed over the wall (maybe that's stated specifically in the book I can't recall), so the fruit would do her no good in the long run.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby DamselJillPole » Dec 17, 2010 8:54 pm

Yeah I agree with DiGoRyKiRkE on his speculation. Even if it wasn't that Aslan ate her head off in the film, that can kill immortals.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby HighQueenofNarnia » Dec 17, 2010 10:11 pm

When I first read that, I was immediately reminded of someone's (I think it was Orlando Bloom's) comment about elves in LotR. (All right, so shoot me.)
Whoever it was said that "since they're immortal, elves cannot die of old age; they've never known sickness or pestilence. They can be slain in battle or they can die of a broken heart, but that's about it." I think that's on target. So, the WW cannot become sick or old. Taking out the bit about a broken heart *as it seems the Witch has no heart*, that would leave the only way for her to die would be in battle. That's, most likely, what Lewis meant. She can be killed; she just can't die of "natural causes".

Makes you wonder if you could poison her to death. ;)
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby Adeona » Dec 18, 2010 8:30 pm

That's what I'd always assumed, HighQueenofNarnia. The apple prevented natural deaths - disease, sickness, old age. It didn't make her impossible to defeat.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby Reepi » Dec 19, 2010 11:04 am

And then of course witches never truly die anyway :P
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby coracle » Dec 19, 2010 11:27 am

"oh yes they do!" - the only person who claimed this was a hag who was killed shortly afterwards, so I don't trust her!
“Not all of us can choose what we give up. The things we love are taken or are never ours at all. If we’re lucky, life is defined not by what we let go, but what we let in: friendship and kind words, frailty and hope.”

From 'Call The Midwife', S9 Ep2
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby DiGoRyKiRkE » Dec 19, 2010 11:36 am

MN wrote:Come in by the gold gates, or not at all. Take of my fruit for others, or despair, for those who steal, or those who climb my walls, shall find their heart's desire, and find despair.


It never says anything abouth the apple "not doing her any good in the long run," Lion's Emblem.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby Aravis Narnia » Dec 19, 2010 12:20 pm

I do not think the apples give eternal life either. They give vitality and energy. They may be able to heal illnesses (and yes, there can easily be a rational explanation for this- such as a compound that combats cancer or infection). But nothing would make her last forever.

So not concerned about this here.

That, and the Highlanders could die if someone decapitated them. Not into Highlander here- but my friend took me to one of the movies so I picked up on that. So there may still be ways for her to die.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby Lucy of Narnia » Dec 21, 2010 7:50 pm

I think it meant like the elves in LotR; they only die if they get killed (or a broken heart), though I do not think the broken heart applies to the WW. ;)
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Dec 22, 2010 8:44 pm

DiGoRyKiRkE wrote:
MN wrote:Come in by the gold gates, or not at all. Take of my fruit for others, or despair, for those who steal, or those who climb my walls, shall find their heart's desire, and find despair.


It never says anything abouth the apple "not doing her any good in the long run," Lion's Emblem.


Aslan says plenty about what would have happened if Digory had taken the apple as the Witch insisted. If you don't do things the right way it will come back and bite you later on. That is what Aslan is saying. If Digory had stolen the apple for his mother it would have healed her anyway, but there would come a day when both he and she would regret it.

By taking the apple the wrong way, the White Witch destroyed any claim to humanity that she ever possessed. All that was left was a cold, empty, heartless shell of a being. That is why she could not die a natural death.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby MinotaurforAslan » Dec 27, 2010 9:22 pm

Thank you for the responses, everybody. But there is a second reason why I assumed the White Witch had eternal life that I forgot to include in my orignal post.

From MN, Chapter 14.

[Aslan said,] "And the Witch tempted you to do another thing, my son, did she not?"
[Digory said,] "Yes, Aslan. She wanted me to take an apple home to Mother."
[Aslan said,] "Understand, then, that it would have healed her; but not to your joy or hers. The day would have come when both you and she would have looked back and said it would have been better to die in that illness."
...
"That is what would have happened, child, with a stolen apple. It is not what will happen now. What I give you now will bring joy. It will not, in your world, give endless life, but it will heal."


When my dad and I were discussing this during our first reading, we came up with the conclusion that Aslan was saying that it was better to die in this world, and go on to be with God in heaven, then to be stuck living here in this sinful world forever.

Also note that Aslan says endless life, not eternal youth, like the elves in LoTR possess.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby Ithilwen » Dec 28, 2010 12:38 am

It could still mean endless natural life though. It doesn't say that it stops you from being murdered.

But even if it did, Aslan can kill anyone, no matter how immortal they are. ;)


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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby MinotaurforAslan » Dec 28, 2010 1:45 am

Ithilwen wrote:It could still mean endless natural life though. It doesn't say that it stops you from being murdered.


But then the whole disadvantage of being stuck on imperfect Earth and never getting a chance to go onto a potentially better afterlife is gone...

I guess it wouldn't apply to Jadis, though, because her afterlife wouldn't be better than her natural one. But to Digory's mother, the disadvantage seems that it would apply.
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Re: How can Jadis die if she ate an apple of eternal life?

Postby Ithilwen » Dec 28, 2010 2:32 am

MinotaurforAslan wrote:But then the whole disadvantage of being stuck on imperfect Earth and never getting a chance to go onto a potentially better afterlife is gone...

Which is always the downside of being immortal... :((

MinotaurforAslan wrote:But to Digory's mother, the disadvantage seems that it would apply.

Which is why it's a good thing she didn't eat that apple. ;)


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