Name the LotGK

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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby Reepicheep775 » Jul 16, 2014 10:13 pm

First off: hooray for the news! It's a relief to know that this project is actually moving forward.

I don't really like the idea of the Lady of the Green Kirtle having a name. I would like to see her plan better explained in the movie, but other than that, I would like to see her be as mysterious as possible because that is how Lewis wrote her. I'm open to the idea of fleshing out characters for film, but I think this character specifically should remain as mysterious as possible. Names are powerful and once you can name evil, it loses some of its power (think Voldemort).
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby Impending Doom » Jul 17, 2014 12:10 pm

I think by letting fans get involved like this is a great start in regaining the fans trust. Its going to take a lot more but you have to start somewhere right.

Like most people, I'm not sure if I like the idea of LOTGK having a name but if the production team feels that its awkward without one than I'm open to the idea because thats the last thing I want. But it doesn't feel out of place in the book... that leads to another question: Does this mean she's going to have an expanded role?
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 17, 2014 12:44 pm

Some other etymological goodies to play around with...

Dictionary.com page for mandolin wrote:1700-10; < Italian mandolino, diminutive of mandola, variant of mandora, alteration of pandora bandore


Mandola and Mandora both seem name-ish.

Dictionary.com page for adder wrote:before 950; late Middle English; replacing Middle English nadder (a nadder becoming an adder by misdivision; cf. apron ), Old English næddre; cognate with Old Saxon nādra, Old High German nātara (German Natter), Old Norse nathra snake, Gothic nadrs adder, Old Irish nathirp snake, Latin natrix water snake


Looks like there might be some possibilities there... Naedra or Nadara, for instance.

(I love Dictionary.com! :P)

I also ran across this page, which has a ton of medieval names and their variants, along with information about the name meanings.

Reepicheep775 wrote:I would like to see her plan better explained in the movie, but other than that, I would like to see her be as mysterious as possible because that is how Lewis wrote her. I'm open to the idea of fleshing out characters for film, but I think this character specifically should remain as mysterious as possible.


It may be that the name she's given will just be another part of her disguise. I'm kind of hoping that audiences will leave the theater feeling like they still don't really know anything about this woman/creature. I think that's part of the reason why she has continued to fascinate readers of CoN over the years; people know so little about her and she continues to intrigue. In some ways, that's the Lady of the Green Kirtle's triumph: even when the mask slipped and she showed her true form, we still hardly knew anything about her.

Reepicheep775 wrote:Names are powerful and once you can name evil, it loses some of its power (think Voldemort).


Also...

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Sorry, I just felt like someone had to do that. ;))

Impending Doom wrote:Like most people, I'm not sure if I like the idea of LOTGK having a name but if the production team feels that its awkward without one than I'm open to the idea because thats the last thing I want. But it doesn't feel out of place in the book... that leads to another question: Does this mean she's going to have an expanded role?


That's largely my thinking as well. It really makes you wonder about how this name is actually going to be used in the story, and why the filmmakers think they need it.

I just hope that they're doing this contest because they genuinely feel that the dialogue demands a name, not just as a promotional thing. I'll be rather peeved if the film comes out and it seems like naming her was completely unnecessary.
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby fantasia » Jul 17, 2014 1:47 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:It may be that the name she's given will just be another part of her disguise.

That is a really interesting idea and one I had not thought of. There are two places in the book where she introduces herself (sort of). The first is when she meets Rilian. We're not told what goes on there, but I'm sure that scene will be fleshed out in the book, and I wouldn't mind at all if she gives him a name, whether it's really her name or not. The second is when she meets Puddleglum and the children and tells them something about how to tell the Gentle Giants who she was and that she sends them for the Autumn Feast. Again, I wouldn't mind a name drop there.
Hadn't thought about those scenes, but calling her by a name makes a lot more sense there than when she's encountered in the Underworld.

I am enjoying reading all of the name suggestions. I can't quite bring myself to dig in like the rest of you all are cause I'm currently expecting a little girl and doing lots of research for her name currently. As the inspiration for the two aren't exactly the same :)) I can't seem to bring myself to go looking for yet another name at this point in time. BUT, if I run across a good one on accident, I'll have to mention it here. :D
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Jul 17, 2014 3:33 pm

I guess I understand why they decided that she needed a name. I think it works fine without one but what do I know about what works and what doesn't in film. I wish the contest didn't just have a spot for a name but also a place for the reasoning behind the name.
Movie Aristotle wrote:In case you were wondering, the name of Lewis' other witch, Jadis, is apparently French for "of old" or "once upon a time." Whatever name is chosen for the LotGK, my hope is that, in honor of Lewis, its construction is well thought-out.
I thought Jadis was Turkish for witch. :-\ Hmm. I guess not. As an internet search doesn't reveal that. I'm sure I saw it somewhere... Since it has a "real" life meaning, it sets an example for what I'd like to see the new name to be like.
Movie Aristotle wrote:Would it be too obvious if I went with the name Grenelinde? -Green-snake or soft-green, depending on your interpretation.

I like it and both definitions would work with the character.
The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote: Just so everyone knows, the rules PDF (the link is under the submit button on the sweepstakes page) say that the contest is open until July 28th at 11:59 PM, Eastern Standard Time. We've got plenty of time to mull over possibilities. :)
I was thinking that left us hardly any time at all. ;))
I looked up the meaning behind Loreley (a siren character from German mythology) the "Lore" part might have come from "lureln" meaning murmuring. LotR could be said to be murmuring. "Yılan" means snake in Turkish and actually could do for a name in its own right. (I used google translation and could hear it said). Then "n" on the end isn't spoken.
Yilan
Lorelind (murmuring snake)
Oranyilan (green snake)
Elinoran (most beautiful woman, green)
Grenadar (green fire)

This is hard. It is fun putting the names together but I'm not sure any of them sound right. :P
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 17, 2014 5:52 pm

Yes, I do think that LOTGK should have a name for the movie. If only to clarify she isn't anything like Jadis. I've been mulling over a name and it occurred to me that the character that LOTGK might resemble most is the French Melusine, alleged to be the ancestress of the European St Pol family and, in particular, Jacinta, Lady Rivers, the mother of Queen Elizabeth (Woodville) and grandmother of Elizabeth of York.

This folkloric water spirit, half woman and half serpent, allegedly married Raymond of Poitou, a prince or nobleman who met her in the forest and fell in love with her. When he disobeyed her instructions not to invade her privacy when bathing, she turned fully into a serpent.

However, to call LOTGK Melusina or Melusine would be identifying her too closely to an already well-known folk tale. I'd prefer a name that would identify her with serpents but also with the colour green or one of the varieties of green we know of. eg Esmerlinda, Viridiana etc.
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 17, 2014 6:19 pm

I do find myself wondering if the main reason that they want to give her a name—even if it's not really her name at all—is so the audience will feel more likely to trust her. If she seems loose-lipped in regards to her name and her intentions—"I think none the worse of him for keeping his own counsel, but I'll be free with mine"—that will make the viewers that much more likely to think she's a good guy. There will be more of a sense of knowing who she is and what she's about.

fantasia_kitty wrote:I am enjoying reading all of the name suggestions. I can't quite bring myself to dig in like the rest of you all are cause I'm currently expecting a little girl and doing lots of research for her name currently. As the inspiration for the two aren't exactly the same :)) I can't seem to bring myself to go looking for yet another name at this point in time.


Awww, congratulations and good luck with the name search for your little girl on the way! :ymhug: I can see how that would be just a little bit more important right now, as well as difficult to multitask on. ;)

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:I was thinking that left us hardly any time at all. ;))


Good point. ;)) I've been so busy lately, I think my perspective of time is a little bit skewed. :P

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:Yilan
Lorelind (murmuring snake)
Oranyilan (green snake)
Elinoran (most beautiful woman, green)
Grenadar (green fire)


Oooh, those are awesome! (I listened to the pronunciation of Yilan over at google translate, and it's very pretty!) I think my favorites are Elinoran and Lorelind. I love the meaning of Lorelind. The murmuring part perfectly fits the scene where she tries to mesmerize Rilian and his rescuers! I can also imagine it spelled as Lorelinde or even Lorelyne.

waggawerewolf27 wrote:I've been mulling over a name and it occurred to me that the character that LOTGK might resemble most is the French Melusine, alleged to be the ancestress of the European St Pol family and, in particular, Jacinta, Lady Rivers, the mother of Queen Elizabeth (Woodville) and grandmother of Elizabeth of York.


Ooh! I had been reading about Melusine recently, but I didn't know that she was alleged to be an ancestor of all of those people. Wow!

According to my google searches, Melusine is a version of Millicent. A really pretty French and German version of Millicent is "Melisande"—I love the way it rolls off the tongue and has a sweet sound to it. I just wish it had an R for the trill factor.

waggawerewolf27 wrote:However, to call LOTGK Melusina or Melusine would be identifying her too closely to an already well-known folk tale. I'd prefer a name that would identify her with serpents but also with the colour green or one of the varieties of green we know of. eg Esmerlinda, Viridiana etc.


I am fond of those Esmer names. ;)) Viridiana is pretty!
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 17, 2014 11:15 pm

Rose-tree Dryad wrote:Viridiana is pretty


I'm glad you like it. Viridian is a kind of blue green & is also the name of a glass company somewhere near here. I'm beginning to think a list of types of green would be useful, whether or not they refer to gemstones like Jade, Turquoise, Malachite, Beryl or Emerald. Some other greens used commonly include the following:

Apple (Pomona? - no. Too earthy)
Avocado? Also known as crocodile fruit.
Bilious (Bilitis - would we be so cruel?)
Bottle green (Glass springs to mind)
Chartreuse (Yellowish green)
Celadon
Dark green (well it is a shade of green)
Forest green (Robin Hood)
Fern green (Fern is sometimes a girl's name)
Khaki
Lime (like the citrus fruit)
Olive (Olivia is too popular though - risks offending people)
Peacock (sort of like teal but more blue)
Pine green
Sea green
Sap green?
Teal (Greenish blue)
Viridian

There are all sorts of shades of green, many obviously unsuitable.
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fantasia_kitty wrote:I am enjoying reading all of the name suggestions. I can't quite bring myself to dig in like the rest of you all are cause I'm currently expecting a little girl and doing lots of research for her name currently. As the inspiration for the two aren't exactly the same I can't seem to bring myself to go looking for yet another name at this point in time. BUT, if I run across a good one on accident, I'll have to mention it here.


Congratulations! And I hope you do find a nice name for your little girl. Not from a paint catalogue though, even a Standards Association paint standard publication. ;))
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby FriendofNarnia2 » Jul 18, 2014 11:25 am

The fact that they don't allow you to explain the meaning behind the name you submit suggests to me that the meaning isn't what is most important to them. They want a name that catches their eye. Then maybe they will research the meaning.
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 18, 2014 2:14 pm

FriendofNarnia2 wrote:The fact that they don't allow you to explain the meaning behind the name you submit suggests to me that the meaning isn't what is most important to them. They want a name that catches their eye. Then maybe they will research the meaning.


That is kind of shame. For me, it's somewhat easier to "accept" a name for the Lady of the Green Kirtle if it has a meaning that makes it seem like it belongs to her on some level. I guess it's possible that the judges will narrow it down to their favorite names based on sound, and then contact the entrants for information about the inspiration for the name before deciding who the winner is? We can hope.
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby Impending Doom » Jul 18, 2014 3:03 pm

Did they say when they'd announce her name and winner?
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 18, 2014 3:41 pm

Impending Doom wrote:Did they say when they'd announce her name and winner?


According to the rules PDF, which can be accessed by clicking on the "rules" link underneath the submit button on the entry page...

The contest ends on July 28th, 2014 at 11:59 pm, Eastern Standard Time. The winner will be chosen on or about August 18th, 2014. Then, the potential winners will be notified by email on or before September 1st, 2014. The potential winners will then have to sign and return an affidavit verifying their eligibility and releasing liability, et cetera. If that affidavit is not returned within 14 days of notification, then the potential winner will be deemed to have forfeited the prize and an alternate potential winner will be chosen.

It's hard to say exactly when to expect an announcement in case their original choice came from someone who isn't eligible or something, but I think it's possible that we'll find out in September.
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The need for a name

Postby Reepi » Jul 19, 2014 9:18 am

With the news of naming the Lady of the green kirtle, am I the only one who is somewhat surprised by a totally unnecessary change from the books?
After all, the book was fine without ever her having a name.
Furthermore, if we look at the other movies in the series we can see that:
Doctor Cornelius, a character who actually does have a name is never referred to as such (Only as "professor").
Ramandu's Daughter, where they also felt they really needed to name her Lilliandil, is only ever referred to by that name once, which is when she introduces herself ("I am Lilliandil..."). Anyone else feel this was also totally unnecessary?

And now, they are going to do that again. Actually, I feel like outright naming the lady of the green kirtle might take a way from the mystery of her character. It seems somewhat disrespectful to change something that was very likely deliberately done by Lewis. After all, in LWW, the white witch also never was named until we found out about her backstory in MN and her charnian heritage. As such, in her case the "mystery" was also there until we did get the chance to find out more about her backstory. Might this be what they are going for? Give her more of a reason and "backstory" ? Turn her into Jadis long lost twin-sister or something equally ridiculous? Who knows.
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Re: The need for a name

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 20, 2014 10:47 pm

Reepi wrote:With the news of naming the Lady of the green kirtle, am I the only one who is somewhat surprised by a totally unnecessary change from the books?
After all, the book was fine without ever her having a name.


I empathize with you; it feels rather unnecessary to me as well. However, I'm not the one writing the script, and if they think that the lack of a name is making for awkward dialogue... well, I'd choose her having a name over awkward dialogue.

I can imagine how this might be the case, too. If they expand the meeting of Rilian and the Lady of the Green Kirtle, and Rilian asks her who she is, and she says "The Lady of the Green Kirtle" ... that's going to sound a little bit weird and evasive. Not exactly trustworthy. At that point in the film, I don't think that we would want anything to tip the audience off that this woman is not someone to be trusted.

I also think it's worth considering that whatever name she's given is not her real name... it's just another part of her disguise.

Reepi wrote:Ramandu's Daughter, where they also felt they really needed to name her Lilliandil, is only ever referred to by that name once, which is when she introduces herself ("I am Lilliandil..."). Anyone else feel this was also totally unnecessary?


Is it just me, or did they use the name again near the end when Lucy said something like, "I'm sure you'll feel better once you see Lilliandil again" to Caspian? (I'm starting to regret my vow to never watch VDT again; my fuzzy memory is keeping me from being able to discuss it intelligently. :P)

Reepi wrote:After all, in LWW, the white witch also never was named until we found out about her backstory in MN and her charnian heritage. As such, in her case the "mystery" was also there until we did get the chance to find out more about her backstory. Might this be what they are going for? Give her more of a reason and "backstory" ? Turn her into Jadis long lost twin-sister or something equally ridiculous? Who knows.


Jadis was named in LWW; they mentioned it in Maugrim's note.

I hope that this naming business isn't indicative of them creating an elaborate backstory for her. I want the mystery to be preserved. I wouldn't object to them dropping hints about her, or giving the audience some possibilities to chew on and speculate about, but I really want people to walk out of the theater feeling like they never really found out who this woman is. In a way, you get the impression that obscuring the truth about herself was the LotGK's primary goal, and by and large she seems to have succeeded.
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 21, 2014 5:14 am

Reepi wrote:With the news of naming the Lady of the green kirtle, am I the only one who is somewhat surprised by a totally unnecessary change from the books?
After all, the book was fine without ever her having a name.


Perhaps, but even so, I wish that even if it isn't her real name there was a different name for Lady of the Green Kirtle than the acronym formed by the phrase. Even LOTGK is too cumbersome in my opinion. If she was called the Lovely Lady Against Most Action she could then be called the LLAMA, which is at least easier to remember for the audience. I hesitate to actually enter this competition as I'm far too old, and they don't want to know about some of the more hideous names that occurred to me. Greenie Queenie was also one, you know. =))

I agree with Rose that her having a name of some sort, especially if it is memorable, would be far better than awkward dialogue.
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Re: Name the LotGK

Postby Ryadian » Jul 21, 2014 12:00 pm

This is an idea that I've been toying with, one which I'm not sure would work, but I think the film makers might be able to pull it off...

...what if the Lady of the Green Kirtle is called by multiple names in the film? For example, if they show when Rilian first meets the her (after his mother's death, before his enchantment), she might introduce herself by some name (as a placeholder name, I'm calling her "Catherine"). After all, if Rilian is suddenly obsessively infatuated with this woman, wouldn't it make sense for him to know her name--at least, the name she tells him?

Fast forward to ten years later, after the LotGK has enchanted Rilian. Naturally, she wouldn't use the same name she gave him before; that runs the risk of someone from Narnia recognizing the name of the woman who lured Rilian away. So, if the enchanted Rilian ever calls her by name now, he uses a different name--say, Victoria. She could even use a different name when introducing herself to the children (such as "Miranda"), and possibly in a couple of other circumstances (the gnomes may have their own name for her).

The thing I like about this approach is that, in addition to never telling us what her name actually is (only a series of pseudonyms she uses along the way), it avoids the kinds of problems that we've discussed so far in this thread, while further teasing the audience with the mystery, as well as establishing her as the kind of villain who plans that far ahead. I also think that, at the very least, using one name before capturing Rilian, and using a different name afterwards, only makes sense from her perspective. The problem is, of course... calling one character by multiple names can be confusing, probably just as confusing as only ever calling her "the Lady of the Green Kirtle" (or "the Witch", etc.). For this idea to work, I think the characters would have to acknowledge, on-screen, that they've heard this woman described by multiple names. I think it can be done, though I would understand why this isn't an ideal approach for the film makers.
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