Chapter 2 - Roast Mutton

[Lady Arwen]

Greetings, all!

Here are this week's questions. Don't feel the need to answer all or even any of them--they're just fuel for the fire of your discussion.

1. The dwarves and Bilbo hit their first big challenge in this chapter. How do you think they handled it? Based on the way they handled it, how likely would you say they are to survive their quest?
2. Tolkien states that Bilbo's "only comfort was he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Why do you think that this was so comforting? Why would it be a great insult to be mistaken for a dwarf?
3. Why do you think William's purse has a cockney accent?

[Ithilwen]

The dwarves and Bilbo hit their first big challenge in this chapter. How do you think they handled it? Based on the way they handled it, how likely would you say they are to survive their quest?

It doesn't appear that they handled it very well, considering what happened. At this point, their chances of survival seem to depend on Gandalf.

Tolkien states that Bilbo's "only comfort was he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Why do you think that this was so comforting? Why would it be a great insult to be mistaken for a dwarf?

Perhaps a bit of Hobbit pride mixed with prejudice?

Why do you think William's purse has a cockney accent?

Good question. I hadn't noticed that. But then, why is his purse talking at all? Does William have a cockney accent? If so, maybe he picked it up from him.


~Riella

[GlimGlum]

1. The dwarves and Bilbo hit their first big challenge in this chapter. How do you think they handled it? Based on the way they handled it, how likely would you say they are to survive their quest?

After 13 of 13 dwarves get sacked/bagged by the trolls (Mr. Baggins avoids the bagging/sacking routine), I would say that the quest would have ended here if not for Gandalf's return.

So their future survival would seem to me to depend on getting more help beyond themselves as they journey onward.

[Meltintalle]

I've always wondered about that talking purse. It's the only item of its sort that ever shows up in Middle Earth to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps it is like the talking harp in Jack and the Beanstalk? Or is it an authorial exaggeration on Bilbo's part to hide the fact that he failed spectacularly at picking pockets?

[narnialuver]

I do not think they handled it very well, In the fact that all of them but Bilbo got bagged.
So far, I do not think that they will fair well in this journey

Bilbo has a lot of pride in being a hobbit. being taken as a dwarf would be a great insult to him.

Over all I liked this chapter very much.

[stargazer]

Despite all the danger in this chapter it struck me as rather funny in a slapstick sort of way - the trolls' conversation, the Laurel-and-Hardy style capture of all 13 dwarves, and the trolls' response to Gandalf's comments.

1. This first test didn't go well for our heroes. Good thing Gandalf's around! At first blush it doesn't bode well for the rest of the adventure.

2. I like the other comments about Bilbo's hobbit pride - wouldn't want others to think he's a dwarf!

3. The talking purse rather confused me too. (If a special item is going to talk, maybe it should be the One Ring. Imagine it talking at inopportune moments in LOTR! )

I like Mel's idea that it's how he rationalizes failing at his pickpocket duties.

[ValiantArcher]

1. They really weren't prepared or on their guard at all. They weren't expecting any danger yet, and so fell into the trap easily (though they learn their lesson somewhat). Their chances of making it past this first hurdle were pretty small without Gandalf. It certainly doesn't inspire confidence in the group!

2. Like the rest of you have said, Bilbo seems pretty proud to be a Hobbit. I think Bilbo is also still shaken by leaving his home and going on an adventure, and he finds it comforting that he's still a respectable Hobbit, not a Dwarf, who are far more prone to doing ridiculous things like going on quests and fighting dragons.

3. Ooh, good one! I'm not sure. But, I do think the purse having a Cockney accent lends it a bit of character; going on stereotypes, it's going to be rough and troublesome. If it had a very respectable formal accent, the purse wouldn't have given Bilbo away in anywhere near the same way.

[Pattertwigs Pal]

1. The dwarves and Bilbo hit their first big challenge in this chapter. How do you think they handled it? Based on the way they handled it, how likely would you say they are to survive their quest?
Not very well. They were unable to do things without quarreling. Thorin was the only one with enough sense to look before he stumbled into something. Bilbo did not have the sense to keep his mouth shut about the others. They have a lot to learn if they are going to survive their journey.
2. Tolkien states that Bilbo's "only comfort was he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Why do you think that this was so comforting? Why would it be a great insult to be mistaken for a dwarf?
As others have said, I think Bilbo took a lot of pride of being a hobbit. I don't think he is very fond of dwarves. And he doesn't have much reason to be since they showed up unexpectedly and made a lot of work for him. They aren't very fond of him either. I think would be a great insult because he isn't one and it isn't something he wants to be. For example, I find it insulting to be mistaken for a junior high student when I am subbing (or going to an interview). I don't want to be a junior high student and I am not one. If someone was mistaken for a famous actor he would probably be pleased (or at least more likely to be pleased).
3. Why do you think William's purse has a cockney accent?
I agree with Valia that a cockney accent seems to go with something being rough and troublesome. Interesting idea Mel, that Bilbo might have exaggerated. I wonder if Tolkien had known that the Hobbit would lead to the Lord of the Rings if he would have written that part differently.

Edit:

It's the only item of its sort that ever shows up in Middle Earth to the best of my knowledge.

I don't know of any other talking purses but didn't a sword talk in Children of Hurin? And that work is definitely not like the Hobbit in tone. Hmm. not sure that really needed spoilers.

[Meltintalle]

Somehow, a sword talking--I'd forgotten about that, and if I now remember the incident correctly from the chapter in the Sil, it could be passed off as an overactive imagination if one wanted to explain it away-- seems more in-place than the purse. Of course, I've also just read Puck of Pook's Hill which has a sword that sings from time to time though not with human words which could contribute to my feeling of, "Oh, but that's normal."

[Movie Aristotle]

2. I'm not sure it would have been particularly insulting to be mistaken for a dwarve, but certainly it would be embarrassing.

3. Tom, William and Bert seem to speak in cockney themselves, so it doesn't surprise me that the purse speaks cockney. (What does surprise me is the fact that the purse speaks at all.) Phrases like "Blimey, Bert, look what I've copped," "I don't want to have me throat cut in me sleep," and "You're a fat fool William, as I've said afore this evening," seem to give the dialect away.

Does anyone else think it is significant that before Gandalf shows up, Bilbo is the only one who manages to get free while the whole rest of the company is tied up in sacks?

[7chronicles]

2. Tolkien states that Bilbo's "only comfort was he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Why do you think that this was so comforting? Why would it be a great insult to be mistaken for a dwarf?

2. I think Bilbo found the Dwarves to be very improper, like a Hobbit should be, and a bit silly. I don't think he wanted to be mistaken with their habits and ways as if he agreed with them.

3. Why do you think William's purse has a cockney accent?

3. LOL, this is one of the great mysteries of Middle-Earth to me!
I love it even though it has never made any sense to me. I always pictured him sounding like he did in The Hobbit game:

you can hear him at the 2:00 minute mark.

[Eustace]

1. The dwarves and Bilbo hit their first big challenge in this chapter. How do you think they handled it? Based on the way they handled it, how likely would you say they are to survive their quest?

They handled the best they could but it definitely was not good enough.
Not very likely that they will even be able to make unless Gandalf keeps saving them at the last minute.

2. Tolkien states that Bilbo's "only comfort was he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Why do you think that this was so comforting?
Why would it be a great insult to be mistaken for a dwarf?

I think it may have a little to do with Hobbits wanting to be respectable. Respectable hobbits do not go on adventures. But, if you do go on an adventure as a Hobbit at least you can't be mistaken for a totally unrespectable Dwarf (in a Hobbit's perspective). Dwarves are unpredictable and go on adventures all the time. (Old-fashioned Hobbit pride).

[Varnafinde]

3. Why do you think William's purse has a cockney accent?

i guess that cockney was supposed to be the opposite (or one opposite) of upper class, and as such, it would be suitable for the uncouth trolls and their magic purses. I believe the trolls speak cockney, too, although I'm no expert on English accents, and the writing is fairly normalised - when their magic purse speaks at all, it would speak in their own accent.

I don't think the purse speaks as a sentient being, it would be more like computerized speech, only made with magic rather than with computer technology.

[Varnafinde]

2. Tolkien states that Bilbo's "only comfort was he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Why do you think that this was so comforting?
Why would it be a great insult to be mistaken for a dwarf?

I think it may have a little to do with Hobbits wanting to be respectable. Respectable hobbits do not go on adventures. But, if you do go on an adventure as a Hobbit at least you can't be mistaken for a totally unrespectable Dwarf (in a Hobbit's perspective). Dwarves are unpredictable and go on adventures all the time. (Old-fashioned Hobbit pride).

I think you have a good point there. And it shows a lot of prejudice, too.
"Dwarves are unpredictable and go on adventures all the time."
I think that this was very much the way Dwarves were seen by Hobbits. And while this view was prejudiced and exaggerated, they had got one point right: The Dwarves did not have that inbred scepticism towards doing new things and going to unknown places that the Hobbits had.

So even though Bilbo goes along on this adventure, he does so hesitantly, not as something an adventorous person would enjoy. He's not like the others, these Dwarves, who do this on a regular basis. He's respectable.

[Meltintalle]

Not to belabor the purse, or read things into its history that just aren't there... but though the purse being magic seems likely, I just can't believe that the trolls were sophisticated enough to create a magic purse. They must have stolen it, and while elves would be the first candidate for the creators of such an item, I also can't see them making something with a cockney accent.

I wonder if it came from Angmar...

[Pattertwigs Pal]

Maybe it was made by cleaver trolls. Like there were smarter giants in Narnia before the modern kind. Maybe the purse is like a parrot and learns to talk like creatures it is with. Another possibility is that is one of the magical toys the dwarves created.