The Emperor-Over-The-Sea

[Cleander]

Hey ya'll,
Something I've been thinking about lately with the whole discussion going on about expanding the Narnia series (Charn battle, Aravis backstory ,etc.) is the possible inclusion of the Great Emperor-Over-The-Sea (who created the Deep Magic) in the upcoming Netflix series. I think he's mentioned only a few times in the entire series, and as far as symbolism goes, is understood to probably represent God the Father. He never even makes an appearance in the books, but he seems to lend Aslan a certain authority in that he gives the idea that Aslan is connected with a far-off, unapproachable, powerful being.
In the series, depending on how expansive they get, the Emperor just might make an appearance, considering the prominent role he has in the books.
I can understand people being concerned about a character who basically is God in Narnia being portrayed by an actor, but I wanted to hear your opinions on whether or not the Emperor should be given an appearance in the series, and, if so, how?

[coracle]

Interesting idea.

Aslan is the Christ-figure in Narnia. In our world Jesus Christ is the only embodiment, the only one of the Trinity who could be seen, heard and touched. Neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit can be seen, heard or touched.

Lewis was a very Bible-based Christian, and wouldn't want anything that didn't match up with the Bible.

Therefore I think Aslan must be a physical presence, but the Emperor-over-Sea must not. In the books, even visions (eg Aslan being seen by Caspian on board ship) or the voice of the albatross to Lucy, are presented as Aslan, not the Emperor.

What do others think?

[fantasia]

What about at the very end of The Last Battle? It's not inappropriate to show him there.

[daughter of the King]

I'm not sure having the Emperor appear would add anything. He's a mythical sort of figure, but he doesn't actually contribute to the plot all that much. That being said, I would love it if they actually referenced him more often than most versions do. His existence hints at a deeper mythology beyond what the characters experience/see.

What about at the very end of The Last Battle? It's not inappropriate to show him there.

Hmmmm . . . that could be interesting. Some sort of figure appearing behind Aslan and granting him authority, perhaps? The only other places I can think of for him to appear are at the end of VDT and the start of SC since the mountain ranges of Aslan's Country are beyond the sea. I'm not sure what he would actually do if he did appear, but those are also possibilities.

[Reepicheep775]

What about at the very end of The Last Battle? It's not inappropriate to show him there.

I've sometimes wondered if the Emperor-Over-the-Sea was an early idea that Lewis had that he later moved away from. I don't know why that would be and I don't have any evidence suggesting that is the case, but it's strange that he's mentioned in LWW and then never seen or heard from again. You would think he would have had a role in LB...

As for him appearing in the series, I think I'm with coracle on this one. I would rather he remain in the background.

[Ryadian]

Dot, I like your idea of referencing the Emperor-Over-The-Sea more often, though personally I feel like that's a well that they should go back to sparingly. He seems like a character that is even more revered than Aslan, and I feel like any reference to him shouldn't be taken lightly.

One question that does arise for me... if the Emperor-Over-The-Sea were depicted, would he be a man or a lion? He's Aslan's father, which would seem to indicate he's also a lion. But as I recall, doesn't the White Witch refer to him having a scepter that the Deep Magic is engraved on? (I'm afraid I'm at work and don't have my copies of the books handy.) I think that image has always ingrained him in my mind as a humanoid figure. I suppose since the Emperor-Over-The-Sea is probably beyond the laws of mortals, he could be either or both, but I'm curious whether or not I'm the only one who's ever pictured him as appearing as a man.

[coracle]

If in the last chapter of LB we read that Aslan no longer looked like a lion to them, his transformation into [something like the glorified resurrected Christ] will be quite enough if it is included visually.
I feel that the Emperor being depicted in some stunning [Isaiah 6] way would be overdoing it, if the Lord will pardon me for saying so.

[The Rose-Tree Dryad]

I do like the idea of referencing the Emperor-Over-the-Sea more, although I don't think they should dare try to show him. Like Dot said, the namedrop hints at a deeper mythology. (And I'm afraid I've always thought of him as a giant bearded man, Rya, so you're not alone there. )

One potential scene that comes to my mind: when Lucy and Susan follow Aslan on the night of his execution, the scene could begin with Aslan staring out at the sea with anguished eyes, as though waiting for a signal that never comes, before bowing his head in assent and leaving the camp to meet the Witch. The inspiration here is Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane before his betrayal, asking the Father to take the cup away from him and yet accepting His will.

[Col Klink]

I've sometimes wondered if the Emperor-Over-the-Sea was an early idea that Lewis had that he later moved away from. I don't know why that would be and I don't have any evidence suggesting that is the case, but it's strange that he's mentioned in LWW and then never seen or heard from again. You would think he would have had a role in LB...

Actually, I reread The Last Battle recently and Peter mentions him. It's kind of odd that Lewis bothered to include one reference in LB after not mentioning him in any of the books after LWW.

I'm curious whether or not I'm the only one who's ever pictured him as appearing as a man.

I've always pictured him as a man too for whatever reason. I think having Aslan be a lion and his father, the Emperor, be a human adds to the weirdness of the character. (I meant that as a good thing BTW.)

Cool visual idea, Rose-Tree Dryad.

[Reepicheep775]

Actually, I reread The Last Battle recently and Peter mentions him. It's kind of odd that Lewis bothered to include one reference in LB after not mentioning him in any of the books after LWW.

Oh, I stand corrected! LB is the book I've read the least.

I've always pictured the Emperor as a man as well. I think it might have to do with the title of "emperor". For me it calls to mind the Roman Emperors. Now that I think of it, I kind of picture him wearing a toga.

[coracle]

Erm, I vote No to the Emperor Over Sea being depicted as a toga-wearing Roman.


(even if played by Peter Capaldi. (previous Doctor Who, who had been in an even earlier episode playing a Roman)

[Ryadian]

Actually, I reread The Last Battle recently and Peter mentions him. It's kind of odd that Lewis bothered to include one reference in LB after not mentioning him in any of the books after LWW.

Oh, I stand corrected! LB is the book I've read the least.

According to the Narnia wiki, the Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea (as they refer to him) is mentioned in all the books except TSC and TMN. Unfortunately, the only specific reference they cite is the LWW one, so I'm not sure when specifically he appears in the other books.

I may just have to re-read them all. What a sacrifice.

Speaking of looking it up, though, I finally got my copy of the book out and confirmed that the White Witch refers to the Deep Magic as being "engraved on the sceptre of the Emperor-beyond-the-Sea". But, just the chapter before, Aslan knights Peter with his own sword, so perhaps the Emperor still could be a lion and find a way to hold a scepter. But I'm glad I'm not alone in imagining him otherwise. And, as coracle pointed out, Aslan "no longer looked like a lion" at the end of TLB, so it makes sense his father wouldn't either.

[aileth]

[T]he Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea (as they refer to him) is mentioned in all the books except TSC and TMN. Unfortunately, the only specific reference they cite is the LWW one, so I'm not sure when specifically he appears in the other books.

I may just have to re-read them all. What a sacrifice.

I looked them up, out of curiosity (not to prevent you from that awful sacrifice, Rya ):
In LB (chapter 12), when Peter bids Tash to take his lawful prey;
In HHB (chapter 11), when Aslan is Shasta's fellow traveller;
In PC (chapter 7), by Doctor Cornelius, when they are discussing the blowing of Queen Susan's horn;
In VDT (again chapter 7), when Edmund is talking with undragoned Eustace;
and of course in LWW, twice by Mr Beaver, twice by the White Witch, and once by Aslan.

ETA: It would be nice to have mention made of the Emperor-Over-Sea, but only that, I think. No elaborate, over-arching character development throughout the series--leave Aslan to be the unifying thread, if they need one.

[Cleander]

Col Klink suggested on another thread that they could make Aslan more impressive (and affordable ) by limiting how much they show of him. I was wondering, could the same be done for the Emperor? Perhaps he wouldn't have to visibly appear at all. How about just a mysterious voice? Making it unclear what exactly he is would also eliminate the problem about him being the father of a lion.

[The Rose-Tree Dryad]

Now that I think of it, I kind of picture him wearing a toga.

Same.

Col Klink suggested on another thread that they could make Aslan more impressive (and affordable ) by limiting how much they show of him. I was wondering, could the same be done for the Emperor? Perhaps he wouldn't have to visibly appear at all. How about just a mysterious voice?

It could be interesting if, in scenes like the conversation with Shasta in HHB or the creation of Narnia in MN, there are moments when Aslan's voice seems mingled with the great eastern wind and the roar of the ocean. Something relatively subtle to remind the viewer of his mystical Father beyond the sea.

And while I wouldn't want the Emperor to actually appear in the story, something I don't think I would mind is Narnian depictions of him. We see carved images of Aslan; it makes sense that the Narnians would also have representations of the Emperor in their art, just like we have images of God the Father in ours.

[coracle]

That last point is interesting; in the Bible God forbids his people to make images of him, but artists post-Renaissance chose to depict him. This is a whole new subject, and I am not qualified to talk about Art History. But if God (who is not physical) was made man only in Jesus Christ, would it not be wrong to present the Emperor as a human, a lion, or any other creature?
The creator is always distinct from Creation, in both the Old and New Testaments. To this day practising Jewish people don't like images of creatures as decorations.