What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

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What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby fantasia_kitty » Sep 12, 2017 10:32 am

We all know that the new production is going to be its own entity, but I'm wondering if they're still going to be influenced in a minor way from changes made in the previous film? The most notable is Ramandu's Daughter (or Lilliandil as she was so named in the VDT movie). At the end of the VDT book, there's a short mention of how she becomes Mrs. Caspian which the movie never touched on. Surprising, given how much Hollywood loves a romance.

Do you think The Silver Chair will need to provide a background story for the non-book-reading audience? Or do you think it's not important and she just needs to be a queen, wife to Caspian and mother to Rilian?

I know I personally found it more poignant that the serpent kills, not just a beloved Queen, but a Star's Daughter as well. I think maybe they could make a mention in the Parliament of Owls. But admittedly, it's not something that will make or break the storyline.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Glumpuddle » Sep 12, 2017 12:31 pm

All we really have to know is that she is the Queen and is dearly loved by her husband, son, and all Narnia. But I do agree that her background somehow makes her murder even more tragic.

I wonder if they could do something to make her seem more than human. LotR gave the elves a very very subtle glow.

Bottom line: If her death feels tragic and I really feel Narnia's complete despair, I won't complain.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Eustace » Sep 12, 2017 12:39 pm

I assume we also would be getting a different actress if they show her back story at all. I would like them to show her to the audience at the very least because she is one of the few cannon romances of Narnia.

But, I guess it would not make or break the story as a whole. But, maybe we can see pictures of Caspian and his wife in pictures around the palace or something before Jill and Eustace leave. I think that would be a cute Easter Egg for fans, just as the drawings on Aslan's How walls were real cool.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby narnia fan 7 » Sep 12, 2017 12:47 pm

I don't think knowing her heritage is really necessary for the story. But it's also not the kind of thing they would have to go out of their way to include. Just a line about her being the daughter of a star would probably work fine.

Eustace wrote: But, maybe we can see pictures of Caspian and his wife in pictures around the palace or something before Jill and Eustace leave.

I like that idea. Could be a great way to do the backstory without flashbacks. Though ideally I think I would prefer to actually see her death.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Skilletdude » Sep 12, 2017 1:08 pm

A focus on her backstory may not be warranted or even possible within the story plot. Too much of it and it's just a needless distraction. However, I wouldn't mind hearing something of her from Rilian after the enchantment has been broken. Like others have said, just a passing reference would do. Maybe it would be in his grief losing so many years of his life to someone who murdered his mother, a 'Daughter of the Stars'. It depends if the filmmakers want to include obscure details from the books that might puzzle the broad audience. I, for one, hope they do!

And I'm more curious to see how far Johnston's statement goes that he wants to do his own thing for this film. Does that mean not bothering with the name Liliandil? I kind of hope so.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Glumpuddle » Sep 12, 2017 1:13 pm

Skilletdude wrote:A focus on her backstory may not be warranted or even possible within the story plot. Too much of it and it's just a needless distraction.


I'm realizing more and more how easily SC could get bogged down in backstory. They definitely need to watch that. But, that said...

One of the things that really hurt the Walden movies, imo, was that they were quick to throw out things that didn't directly advance the plot. Like the romp with Bacchus and Silenus. Or basically the entire last third of VDT. In effect, they systematically filtered out much of what defines the series: Atmosphere and joy. Take all that out and all that remains is a generic fantasy adventure.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 12, 2017 1:29 pm

It will probably depend on how they approach telling Rilian's story, I'm thinking. If they do a Prince Caspian-style beginning, showing what happened with the ruling family in Narnia before heading to England to catch up with Jill, for instance, then I can imagine them having the space to hint at her background in some way. Maybe have her holding young Rilian on a Cair Paravel balcony under a night sky, talking about Rilian's grandfather looking down in the heavens above. (It would be kind of neat to "trick" the audience into thinking that her father is dead, until revealing somehow that he is a Star and she is a Star's daughter.)

In a way, it might be nice to have a scene like that with Rilian and his mother, to show the tender connection between them and give some depth to the son's grief after her murder.

Glumpuddle wrote:I wonder if they could do something to make her seem more than human. LotR gave the elves a very very subtle glow.


I like that idea. Obviously nothing like what they did in VDT, but something to suggest an inner light, or an unusual clarity in her eyes. Ramandu's Daughter has always had an aura of holiness about her, and definitely similar to the elves in LotR in that respect.

Skilletdude wrote:And I'm more curious to see how far Johnston's statement goes that he wants to do his own thing for this film. Does that mean not bothering with the name Liliandil? I kind of hope so.


I hope so, too; I never really liked the name much, and I like the fact that she is simply the Queen in SC. Her lack of a name adds to the mythic, "fable"-like quality that David Magee mentioned in his interview on the Talking Beasts podcast.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Glumpuddle » Sep 12, 2017 2:36 pm

And I'm more curious to see how far Johnston's statement goes that he wants to do his own thing for this film. Does that mean not bothering with the name Liliandil?


Was the name ever spoken in the film?

I'm completely in favor of pretending the VDT film never happened. I already do that in my personal life. ;)
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Skilletdude » Sep 12, 2017 2:58 pm

Yes, she introduces herself by name in the film. Granted, it was probably the least concerning addition in VODT (after all, it's VODT!), but still an unnecessary one.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 12, 2017 11:41 pm

Skilletdude wrote:Yes, she introduces herself by name in the film. Granted, it was probably the least concerning addition in VODT (after all, it's VODT!), but still an unnecessary one.


It doesn't mean that Liliandil has to be her name once she becomes Queen. In line with the practice of making most titles patronymic, a Queen Consort, whatever her antecedents, is only so because of her husband. Duchesses and Princesses have often been called by their husband's first name rather than by their own, especially when commoners in the first place. Was it a competition that gave Ramandu's daughter that particular name? And if so, what happened to the competition to give a name to LOTGK?

I could be quite happy with Lilian, Liliane, Liliana or even just plain Lily, maybe as an endearment. Liliandil suggests that someone known for her sage-ness was anything but wise. Or that VDT the film was on a LOTR jag. But I doubt the present filmmakers of Silver Chair have the thyme to worry about it overmuch. The Queen, or Caspian's Queen or Rilian's mother sounds quite adequate to me.

Much of the back story is about the impact of her death, one way or another, to cause Caspian extreme grief and also the disappearance of their son, Rilian. We need to concentrate on the consequences rather than on the romantic bit, even if it is a starting point.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Stylteralmaldo » Sep 23, 2017 5:49 am

The 'star' bloodline should be hinted at and not elaborated upon. It ought to be subtle enough to satisfy those who appreciate the history of Narnia and have a good knowledge of Narnia through the stories yet not too detailed so as to confuse the casual viewer.

It's an important detail that should be addressed in some form in my opinion and not glossed over as if it doesn't matter at all.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Anhun » Jan 23, 2018 6:18 pm

If Johnston said that SC is going to be the start of a separate series, then I doubt we'll hear the name "Liliandil" anywhere. They might decide to make her glow if they think it's an interesting effect, although I hope they don't. To me, it would take away from the death scene.

I've mentioned before that I would like it if there was a backstory montage presented during the opening credits, ending with a middle aged Caspian reading little Rilian a picture book called the "Adventures of Eustace Scrubb."

I do think it would bring home the point of her being a star's daughter if they show her turning into star dust in Rilian's arms after she dies. I also think that she should still have the appearance of a youngish woman. It stands to reason that stars (and their daughters) would age much more slowly than normal humans.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby coracle » Jan 24, 2018 2:36 am

This is mostly the story of Jill and Eustace, but the events that set it off (in Narnia) specifically focus on Rilian and his parents.
The suggestion that the background should be given in the owls' narrative (using voice-over and silent video) is a good one.
I also like the idea that there will be paintings of young King Caspian and his Queen hung in Cair Paravel, which Eustace and Jill can look at. Maybe Rilian as a small child - so that they won't recognise him.
As for a book about Eustace - perhaps there will be a picture book showing events from the time Caspian sailed nearly to the end of the world. I like the idea that Eustace and Jill look at it, and she realises with a shock that he is in the pictures.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jan 24, 2018 3:35 pm

The more I read Silver Chair, the less I agree that a flashback is really necessary. All that is needed is a crime scene, right at the beginning, when the credits go up, to demonstrate visually as clearly as possible how Caspian's Queen died whilst on a picnic. And since she is, or was, the Queen she doesn't have to be identified any other way. The site of her death is most important and I will explain why as soon as I can.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jan 24, 2018 3:41 pm

Anhun wrote:I do think it would bring home the point of her being a star's daughter if they show her turning into star dust in Rilian's arms after she dies.


I like that idea. I'm not sure how I would go about it from a visual standpoint, but I think the surprise of discovering—somehow—that the Queen was not exactly human could fit well with the overall "things are not as they seem" theme in The Silver Chair. Still, I wouldn't want the revelation that the Queen is a star's daughter to become the focus of the scene either, so they would have to be careful.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jan 24, 2018 6:55 pm

But according to the text her body was brought back for the King to bury, and since once she expired, Rilian commences his search for the snake, she doesn't have to die in his arms either. Her dying body might very well explode in stars at the point of death, but up to that point it is that the Queen awoke from a deep sleep to find a snake munching her that is the problem. The only thing that is still relevant to the rest of the story is if one sees Rilian riding away on his horse. It is only how and where she dies that is of the utmost importance to the rest of the book, and why there needs to be a quest that Aslan has commissioned Jill and Eustace to do.

Eustace is key to the story and the film, however it may have been related from Jill's point of view. Jill has been given 4 signs and the first sign is that Eustace must recognize and greet an old friend. But the King has so changed from when Eustace knew him on the Dawn Treader's voyage, that by the time Eustace knew the king was King Caspian X, thanks to Glimfeather, he'd utterly missed the boat. Glimfeather does the best he can to help, by first taking them both to meet Trumpkin.

The reason why the crime scene where the Queen dies is important to portray at the beginning of the SC film is that this particular scene is so often mentioned in the rest of the story, whether or not it is filmed.

At the Owls' Parliament Eustace wants to know: 1. Who is Rilian, and how did he come to disappear. 2. Why Trumpkin might not be able or willing to provide much assistance and may seek to delay the quest to find Rilian. 3. Why Drinian, someone else Eustace may have thought about, is unable to help. And since Drinian has died, but not by Caspian's hand, he must have informed the Owls somehow of what happened. Maybe left a letter or message for them to pass on whenever it was needed. Drinian is still important because he is the only one who witnessed the lady dressed in poisonous green making eyes at Rilian, distracting him from his search, and who could have told the Owls how hard it had been to tell Caspian about his missing son, and his own part in it.

But if he has died long ago then obviously he can't be of any further help, and it is his testimony relayed to the Owls that is important, that Rilian before he disappeared had visited the same picnic site where his mother had been killed, and it was there that he met the mysterious lady. So is it important for Drinian to play any part, even in a flashback when there are plenty of other ways of transmitting information, even in Narnia?

Eustace might then wonder what happened to his other shipmates who served under Drinian, and also why Trumpkin is so loath to help someone from that old expedition. As Trumpkin says himself, his master the King has just sailed away. Likely, if there were any old shipmates left, they probably went with the King. Someone has to sail the ship. And Trumpkin is also short-handed with champions in general to defend the realm, due to how many people had gone to search for the Prince in ten years and who never returned.

The crime scene glade is again important, because that glade was the main starting point of those champions lost to the search for Rilian. The Owls are startled and maybe a bit alarmed that Aslan's second sign suggests they have to go north, instead.

Later, when Jill and Eustace do meet up with the Prince, he is to be tied into a Silver Chair where he tells them about a glade where there was a pool where he remembered seeing reflected in its depths, "all the trees growing upside-down in the water". Was this glade the same glade where his mother was killed? With the fountain an entry to a reflected, upside down vision of the world?

Finally, when the escaping Prince's party follows the witch's diggings, they find themselves halted at a bank with an overhead gleam of moonlight. Eventually, that hole in the ceiling of the tunnel they had been following, brings them back to the heart of a snow-bound Narnia. Most likely at the same glade where Rilian's mother was killed.

This is why it is only the glade that is important and why it isn't really necessary to show Rilian before they meet him in the Dark Castle. Or the Queen of the Underworld, either, before they meet her at the Giants' bridge.
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