Changing & Rearranging SC

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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 21, 2016 4:55 am

Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:On the other hand, though, I get the sense that at Experiment House, a lot of the kids may have come from broken or unorthodox homes, so I'm not sure if her parents being separated would account for the bullying. (And the bullies seem to bully everybody who isn't currying favor.)


The bullying might have gone on anyway, for a myriad of reasons, not only dysfunctional family backgrounds. Lack of discipline and boundary setting by means of enforcing set school rules, seems to be the main factor at Experiment House, and also lack of tolerance for anyone who is deemed as "different" from the bullies, plus a liking of having power over other children. Not only those brave enough to defy them, but also over their "hangers on". The Experiment House bullies, too, can be tinpot dictators in their own lunch time, mimicking the people they see in the news. Or on TV if they had access to it.

And in communities world wide, at whatever level of society, especially where it was still considered a man's right to beat his wife whenever she annoyed him in any way, domestic violence, defined as controlling and mistreating other family members by using against them verbal, physical, and other forms of abuse, could also be a reason for bullying when children go to school. Including in boarding schools like Experiment House. The point about the 1940's and 1950's when Jill and Spivvins were there, was that so much that you might consider as "unorthodox" or "dysfunctional" was not at all unusual, but was often swept under the carpet, for fear of the press and "what the neighbours thought", even when marriages remained intact. I suspect that Experiment House is just another microcosm of wartime and postwar society, bullying and all. And that it was also a relevant backdrop to enable Jill to meet Eustace, whose character and family life we already know about.

Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:From a movie-making perspective, going through a divorce is something that a lot of kids can unfortunately relate with nowadays. I can imagine the filmmakers possibly taking Jill's story in that direction in order to make her emotions more accessible to the audience.


That is a fair point. On the other hand, when divorce and family breakdown is so frequent, there is a danger that mentioning Jill's parents in such a scenario, might merely be so commonplace that the audience lose interest. I like your idea of keeping her background a bit vague, also the suggestion that in some way or another she is estranged from her parents. On the other hand, since Spivvins, a minor character, is already mentioned in the book, I wouldn't mind if Eustace's keeping his secret involved a recent family breakdown or loss of some sort, thus provoking the bullies to torment Eustace, instead.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby Eustace » Sep 28, 2016 4:02 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:
The bullying might have gone on anyway, for a myriad of reasons, not only dysfunctional family backgrounds. Lack of discipline and boundary setting by means of enforcing set school rules, seems to be the main factor at Experiment House, and also lack of tolerance for anyone who is deemed as "different" from the bullies, plus a liking of having power over other children. Not only those brave enough to defy them, but also over their "hangers on". The Experiment House bullies, too, can be tinpot dictators in their own lunch time, mimicking the people they see in the news. Or on TV if they had access to it.





I think you make a pretty fair point about bullying. Also, I think because the filmmakers may want to make the audience really connect with Jill, they might want to do some scenes showing the bullying mentioned in the book rather than just having the characters mention it. This plus making her family a sore part (either not really in the picture or estranged in someway) may connect the audience to Jill right off the bat.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Apr 01, 2017 5:38 pm

So a couple of posts have got me thinking...

wagga in Should Susan be excluded from 'The Last Battle'? wrote:The Pevensies may be no more than a memory in Silver Chair, but they were most likely at the party at the end of that book, when Jill wore her Narnian Costume.


Movie Aristotle in SC to release in 2018? wrote:Okay, so I know during VDT I made all sorts of false predictions, but, from the way that William was talking and from his confidence in the insider knowledge, it made me wonder if he might be involved himself...


Is it possible they might include the Pevensies/Friends of Narnia in an epilogue in The Silver Chair? While Will Moseley said that his character doesn't show up again until The Last Battle, he does seem awfully close to production for someone who technically isn't involved... and he and Anna Popplewell were pretty mum and coy about their cameos in VDT, if I remember correctly.

I've said before that I think there's an argument to be made for threading the remaining four films together with Friends of Narnia scenes in England, where stories about Narnia are shared until the events of The Last Battle. I also am quick to say that scenes like those could come across as hokey or disrupt the flow of the story, though. I think they could be very good additions if done well, but if I had my druthers, they wouldn't be in the films and each of the upcoming movies would be able to stand on its own feet as a standalone story. That said, I can certainly understand why Hollywood may feel the need to create some sort of overarching narrative linking the last four films together.

One thing I can imagine them doing in SC is having an epilogue at the end where Eustace and Jill are walking up to a house (the Kilns?!) at dusk and Jill is saying, "Come on, Scrubb, what's with all the cloak and daggers? Why won't you tell me what this is about? And why'd you tell me to wear my dress from Narnia?" And then he grins and says, "There are some people you really ought to meet..." and they enter the house and there are the Friends of Narnia seated around a glowing hearth. (A circle of Christian friends by a good fire, anyone?) A lot of fans of the Walden trilogy would go crazy to see the original Pevensies again, and if they plan on including Friends of Narnia scenes in MN and HHB, starting in SC might be a good idea.

Thoughts?
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Apr 01, 2017 6:48 pm

I'd agree with you more, Rose-Tree Dryad, if I hadn't been inclined to think the meeting might have been also Susan's homecoming party and that fancy dress had been just a way of making the occasion more fun. Susan could, should and would have had a ball at such an occasion however she dressed, herself, if she had just arrived home from America, the home of Hollywood, film stars, screen heroes, Gone with the Wind, Dorothy from Wizard of Oz and "cowboys and Indians". Ruby slippers for Susan, anyone?

Yes, the Kilns would be a good location for a party or a social get together, though C.S.Lewis' favourite pub might also be a good place. ;) The Village pub or community hall is usually UK's answer to celebrations where Buckingham Palace or some other grand place is unavailable. :)

Not only the Friends of Narnia could link any remaining films together, as you suggest, but Susan's gradual and eventual absence from Last Battle would be less of a problem, judging by her reactions to the party. But a lot depends on which film of the series can be made next. If it is HHB, then definitely she has to show up at the party, and possibly Edmund as well.

That Friends of Narnia link might also help keep Jill and Eustace in the public eye if HHB is made before LB.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » May 11, 2017 1:14 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Yes, the Kilns would be a good location for a party or a social get together, though C.S.Lewis' favourite pub might also be a good place. ;)


Maybe they could use that for another Friends of Narnia scene in a subsequent film, if they go that route! That would be neat.

Thanks to The Silver Chair reading group, I've been thinking about the blind poet and his tale of The Horse and His Boy at the feast during Jill and Eustace's brief stay at Cair Paravel. It's the sort of character and detail that I had always expected would be cut, or simply be part of the backdrop of a scene, but then it occurred to me: wouldn't it be a bad idea to cut or downplay this one preceding mention of the events of HHB, considering that HHB is already enough of an outlier in the series? And yet you wouldn't want to spoil the story, either.... :-?

One thought that came to my mind is that they could cut the part where Jill is falling asleep in her room before Glimfeather shows up (which I would kind of hate; I like that scene), and instead have her enjoying herself at the feast just as the blind poet begins his tale, and then Eustace drags her off into some alcove and tells her that Glimfeather is back and they've got to go while everyone is distracted. I can imagine them bickering as usual and Jill being cross and saying "But I wanted to hear the story!"—perhaps leaving the audience wondering about the story as well, and subsequently delighted when they find that the blind poet's tale is meant to become a film.

It would probably be a quicker exit for Jill and Eustace and thus save screen time, although it would also be difficult for the two guests of honor to sneak off unbeknownst to their hosts... but perhaps the blind poet is a truly enthralling storyteller!
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » May 11, 2017 4:05 pm

Rose-tree Dryad wrote:Thanks to the Silver Chair reading group, I've been thinking about the blind poet and his tale of The Horse and His Boy at the feast during Jill and Eustace's brief stay at Cair Paravel. It's the sort of character and detail that I had always expected would be cut, or simply be part of the backdrop of a scene, but then it occurred to me: wouldn't it be a bad idea to cut or downplay this one preceding mention of the events of HHB, considering that HHB is already enough of an outlier in the series? And yet you wouldn't want to spoil the story, either....


Doesn't the spoiler effect depend chiefly on how much of the tale is told, and from which point of view? We don't know much about what happened during the Pevensie tetrarchy. Queen Susan's tale of romance with Rabadash, or some other unnamed suitor, and, maybe a somewhat less impressed Edmund's efforts to dissuade her from leaving Cair Paravel to visit that suitor, or just a part of any of it could be told without mentioning Shasta or Aravis or any sort of detail of the story in a poem. What about King Peter's marvellous displays to entertain yon perfidiously cruel suitor with ill-intent? Or how he left to fight giants whilst Susan dithered over her expedition to Tashbaan, leaving gallant Edmund to sort it all out?

On the other hand, we might get some information about Rilian, the missing prince. Maybe the poet might correlate the sadness of losing Caspian's Queen plus the disappearance of their son, with the sadness of other missing royalty, such as the missing twin from Archenland, whose disappearance broke King Lune's Queen's heart? Or how, when these misadventures did end well, then perhaps the romantic hope that the missing prince might also turn up alive, after so many years?
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 03, 2017 6:59 pm

I had a crazy thought just now... I was thinking about how the filmmakers might find it a challenge to keep the audience emotionally involved in the scene with Caspian's resurrection, since a) it's been several years since VDT, and Ben Barnes may not even reprise the role, and b) Caspian is barely in the story.

So, because wild speculation is my specialty: what if they tried to swap out Puddleglum for Caspian in that scene? Have Puddleglum die somehow? Off the cuff, that does seem like something Hollywood might do. "They're weeping over their friend Puddleglum that the audience loves just as much, and he gets to join in on the beating of the bullies at Experiment House. He doesn't show up in the later books anyway, so it's a fine idea to go ahead and kill him off and send him to Aslan's Country." However, it would make a total mess of the last few chapters of the book: what would happen with old Caspian, how would Puddleglum die instead, et cetera.

Needless to say, I would hate it. ;)) And thankfully I think it's quite unlikely, especially with Magee on board, but he's not the only one involved with telling this story and you never know. (I'm still learning to trust again after VDT. :P)

To end this post on a saner note, here's one other idea: old Caspian could resemble a grandfather figure that cared for Jill until he died, and that's why the vision of death at the stream is painful for her. Near the beginning of the film you could show Jill looking at a picture or a locket of her late grandfather, and have her briefly reference him when talking to Eustace at Experiment House—perhaps explaining how she came to live at the school.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby Anfinwen » Jun 18, 2018 12:52 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:I had a crazy thought just now... I was thinking about how the filmmakers might find it a challenge to keep the audience emotionally involved in the scene with Caspian's resurrection, since a) it's been several years since VDT, and Ben Barnes may not even reprise the role, and b) Caspian is barely in the story.

I actually came back to this thread to post about the same thing. I think the resurrection scene could be awkward, especially to people who aren't familiar with the blood of Jesus type imagery used in the scene. Do you think they'll have no one die and just have a happy ending all round with Rillian and Caspian?
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 11, 2018 9:59 pm

Something that has occurred to me recently about the Silver Chair, itself, and how it works. Obviously it causes Rilian pain, making him struggle to get away from his bounds, but in what way? Also the rest of the time he is not restrained he seems drugged in some way so that he loses his memory.

Does what he see when tied into the chair memories of what he knew in Narnia, the death of his mother, the process by which he met a seductive Lady of the Green Kirtle and his abduction underground? Does he relive it? Wouldn't this be a good place to put in some sort of backflash, explaining not only the reversal of Rilian's previous behaviour but also his relationship with LOTGK and how it could have changed from describing her as a nosegay of all virtues to describing her in somewhat less flattering terms.

Does Rilian realise which country just might be where he is heading if he follows the Witch's plan? And does he get haunted by thoughts of his father and other friends?

It is probably too late, but I wondered what anyone thought of this idea?
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 12, 2018 3:30 pm

Anfinwen wrote:I actually came back to this thread to post about the same thing. I think the resurrection scene could be awkward, especially to people who aren't familiar with the blood of Jesus type imagery used in the scene. Do you think they'll have no one die and just have a happy ending all round with Rillian and Caspian?


That's a distinct possibility; it would definitely be easy to cut and just show Caspian on the brink of dying from despair before the return of his son renews his will to live. Aside from the fact that it would be a major departure from the book, though, it would also really take the shine off of the apple curing Digory's mother in MN.

If they went the Puddleglum-dies-in-Underland route, they might have Caspian die before Eustace and Jill ever arrive in Narnia. At the end of their quest, spirits are high in Narnia because Caspian's son has returned and they have a king again, but Eustace and Jill are sad about their friend's sacrifice, which then transitions to a resurrection scene where Puddleglum is in Caspian's place in the stream.

Those both seem like possibilities that Hollywood might dream up, but I really hope they don't go in those directions. I think there are far better ways to connect Caspian's death and resurrection into the overall arc of the story.

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Does what he see when tied into the chair memories of what he knew in Narnia, the death of his mother, the process by which he met a seductive Lady of the Green Kirtle and his abduction underground? Does he relive it?


Hmm, I don't think that Rilian is reliving his past life when he's in the chair... at first, he only seems to remember hazy images of his previous life, and even those memories appear to come from right before his capture. (He seems to be describing the fountain, for instance.) And then it isn't until after the chair is destroyed that Rilian seems to realize that he's been talking to a Marshwiggle. He is also very quick to tell them that he is the lost prince at that point, but he couldn't find those words when he was still bound.

So instead of his memories, it seems to me that Rilian regains his own will and personality during the time he is bound to the chair. It's the only time of the day when he knows his true desires and might be able to escape from the witch's clutches. He still doesn't know his full identity and history, though. My guess is that the chair's re-enchantment process is preventing him from fully remembering his own past, and that's why we don't see him arguing with the questers and trying to prove that he's Rilian of Narnia. And why he's so increasingly desperate, because he can feel the magic seeping back into him and stealing his lucidity away. The effort of trying to fight it off is driving him to madness.

I've always found the exact nature of the silver chair to be a rather difficult puzzle to unravel, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the filmmakers try to make its use a bit clearer in the movie. It is the titular element, after all!
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 13, 2018 12:06 am

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:
Anfinwen wrote:I actually came back to this thread to post about the same thing. I think the resurrection scene could be awkward, especially to people who aren't familiar with the blood of Jesus type imagery used in the scene. Do you think they'll have no one die and just have a happy ending all round with Rillian and Caspian?


That's a distinct possibility; it would definitely be easy to cut and just show Caspian on the brink of dying from despair before the return of his son renews his will to live. Aside from the fact that it would be a major departure from the book, though, it would also really take the shine off of the apple curing Digory's mother in MN.

If they went the Puddleglum-dies-in-Underland route, they might have Caspian die before Eustace and Jill ever arrive in Narnia. At the end of their quest, spirits are high in Narnia because Caspian's son has returned and they have a king again, but Eustace and Jill are sad about their friend's sacrifice, which then transitions to a resurrection scene where Puddleglum is in Caspian's place in the stream.

Those both seem like possibilities that Hollywood might dream up, but I really hope they don't go in those directions. I think there are far better ways to connect Caspian's death and resurrection into the overall arc of the story.


If you try either alternative there are a lot of other things you would miss out on as well. Puddleglum has to be alive to get them all out of Underland, though he still has a burned foot which keeps him in the cave. The other scenario mentioned would destroy The "Lord now let thy servant depart in peace According to thy word" aspect. It is essential that Caspian dies knowing that his son has returned and that he and Rilian have a few words together of reconciliation, and relief. For that is what was killing Caspian all along. There had to be a time for Caspian to hand over, you see.

This isn't strictly religious, either. It is what is inferred and what is expected in real life and C.S.Lewis who allegedly modelled Caspian on George VI knew this. In UK tradition a king can't be made king until the moment his predecessor dies. Then the cry goes up "The King is dead. Long live the King". For the Crown doesn't die even if the incumbent does. I hope they do the resurrection bit, though maybe a bit classier than the representation in the BBC version. That scene is too important to miss out altogether. I'd hope though that King Caspian is returned to the young man he was in VDT though, rather than a young boy.


Rose-tree Dryad wrote:Hmm, I don't think that Rilian is reliving his past life when he's in the chair... at first, he only seems to remember hazy images of his previous life, and even those memories appear to come from right before his capture. (He seems to be describing the fountain, for instance.) And then it isn't until after the chair is destroyed that Rilian seems to realize that he's been talking to a Marshwiggle. He is also very quick to tell them that he is the lost prince at that point, but he couldn't find those words when he was still bound.

So instead of his memories, it seems to me that Rilian regains his own will and personality during the time he is bound to the chair. It's the only time of the day when he knows his true desires and might be able to escape from the witch's clutches. He still doesn't know his full identity and history, though. My guess is that the chair's re-enchantment process is preventing him from fully remembering his own past, and that's why we don't see him arguing with the questers and trying to prove that he's Rilian of Narnia. And why he's so increasingly desperate, because he can feel the magic seeping back into him and stealing his lucidity away. The effort of trying to fight it off is driving him to madness.

I've always found the exact nature of the silver chair to be a rather difficult puzzle to unravel, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the filmmakers try to make its use a bit clearer in the movie. It is the titular element, after all!


That seems a realistic interpretation of what happens. The bit that I bolded is worth noting though as it is just the bit of the backflash that the audience does really need to see or hear described when Rilian is tied in the chair. Not the Queen being killed, though the place where it happened is important. Or Rilian riding away, either. But the moments before Rilian's capture are most definitely something the audience needs to see for themselves or hear about somehow, even if it is blurry. My guess is that LOTGK greets him when he arrives to see her, and she starts kissing him, cuddling him, hands all over him, winding herself around him, just like she did at the end. And then having him pinned down, he finds himself dragged down, maybe through the fountain, itself, to an Earthman reception. And when he struggles against them and LOTGK, by now as a snake, stuns him so that is the last thing he sees, as in a mirror. At that point he faints.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby Anfinwen » Jul 13, 2018 8:17 am

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Something that has occurred to me recently about the Silver Chair, itself, and how it works. Obviously it causes Rilian pain, making him struggle to get away from his bounds, but in what way? Also the rest of the time he is not restrained he seems drugged in some way so that he loses his memory.

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:I've always found the exact nature of the silver chair to be a rather difficult puzzle to unravel, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the filmmakers try to make its use a bit clearer in the movie. It is the titular element, after all!

I'm with you there; The book implies it's magical when Rillian destroys it, but the main purpose seems to be restraining Rillian and prevent him from escaping or doing harm during the lapse in the enchantment. I imagine that something in the chair is meant to keep him somewhat enchanted during the lapse of the original enchantment.
The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:And then it isn't until after the chair is destroyed that Rilian seems to realize that he's been talking to a Marshwiggle. He is also very quick to tell them that he is the lost prince at that point, but he couldn't find those words when he was still bound.

So the implication might be that something in the chair is keeping his mind in a fogged frenzy so that he can't come fully out of the spell and necessitate starting the enchantment over (as she seems to be doing with the powder in the fire later on). My guess it that the filmmakers won't dive to deeply into this, however. It's easier and self-explanatory to show the chair merely as a restraining device, but that really doesn't explain why staying in the chair keeps him enchanted while getting out sets him free.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 14, 2018 3:40 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:But the moments before Rilian's capture are most definitely something the audience needs to see for themselves or hear about somehow, even if it is blurry. My guess is that LOTGK greets him when he arrives to see her, and she starts kissing him, cuddling him, hands all over him, winding herself around him, just like she did at the end. And then having him pinned down, he finds himself dragged down, maybe through the fountain, itself, to an Earthman reception. And when he struggles against them and LOTGK, by now as a snake, stuns him so that is the last thing he sees, as in a mirror. At that point he faints.


Exactly how the backstory with Rilian and the LotGK will be shown is something I'm very curious about with this adaptation. It's possible they could begin the movie with the story of Rilian's disappearance, and then cut to another scene (perhaps the Cair Paravel crew realizing that Jill and Eustace are missing, and beginning to mount a search party) when the old Owl starts to tell the tale during the Parliament meeting in order to avoid redundancy. Then they cut back to the Parliament scene and continue it as we see in the book. It really depends on whether the filmmakers think the story is best begun in Narnia or England, though.

I don't know if the audience needs to see exactly how Rilian was kidnapped, but I do like the idea of his entrance to Underland being through the fountain itself; it would jive well with the theory that LotGK is some sort of evil water spirit. (See Melusine.) I've never imagined it as being a violent kidnapping, though; more like a maddened sailor answering a siren's call to a watery doom.

Anfinwen wrote:So the implication might be that something in the chair is keeping his mind in a fogged frenzy so that he can't come fully out of the spell and necessitate starting the enchantment over (as she seems to be doing with the powder in the fire later on). My guess it that the filmmakers won't dive to deeply into this, however. It's easier and self-explanatory to show the chair merely as a restraining device, but that really doesn't explain why staying in the chair keeps him enchanted while getting out sets him free.


Thinking about it, it's possible that the primary use of the chair is as a restraining device... Rilian can't do much to escape the LotGK's music or voice when tied to it. We do know by Rilian's own admission that the LotGK alone stays with him during his ravings, so unless she just enjoys witnessing his suffering, her presence may be necessary for the renewal of the enchantment. (Granted, she was not present on that fateful night when the questers arrived, but she returned soon after the ravings began and expected Rilian to still be bound in the chair when she did.) It may be that the magic of the chair may be somewhat similar to the sweet-smelling smoke, having the same end result even if the initial effect is the opposite: to make the victim more vulnerable, either by sending them into a stupor or driving them to utter desperation.

Something else I'm also curious about is how the filmmakers might interpret the LotGK's transformation into a serpent. Specifically, will it seem like an intentional transformation, or the natural progression of a curse? (Again, following from the idea that Lewis drew extensive inspiration from the myths of Melusine, who was cursed to turn into a snake and sought to hide this from her husband.) I don't get a strong sense about this when reading the scene in the book, aside from the fact that Lewis describes her arms as appearing fastened to her sides which visually could appear involuntary. If they do imply that her transformation is against her will, though, that could create a narrative that the silver chair's purpose was to prevent Rilian from discovering—or rather, remembering—the LotGK's true form.

It might clear up some of the audience's potential questions, so I can see them possibly going that route. It would be a bit of a departure from the ambiguity of the book, but I don't think I'll mind very much if they are drawing inspiration from myths that certainly appear to have influenced Lewis when he was crafting this villain.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 17, 2018 4:56 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:Something else I'm also curious about is how the filmmakers might interpret the LotGK's transformation into a serpent. Specifically, will it seem like an intentional transformation, or the natural progression of a curse? (Again, following from the idea that Lewis drew extensive inspiration from the myths of Melusine, who was cursed to turn into a snake and sought to hide this from her husband.) I don't get a strong sense about this when reading the scene in the book, aside from the fact that Lewis describes her arms as appearing fastened to her sides which visually could appear involuntary. If they do imply that her transformation is against her will, though, that could create a narrative that the silver chair's purpose was to prevent Rilian from discovering—or rather, remembering—the LotGK's true form.


Actually that transformation is the highlight which makes and breaks the film. I'm not sure that there isn't a voluntary aspect to LOTGK's transformation. A major difference between LOTGK and Jadis as two witchy and evil characters, is that LOTGK is rarely seen in a temper, unlike Jadis whose bad temper is what impresses Uncle Andrew the most. Even when LOTGK discovered the Silver Chair had been destroyed, and seems infuriated, she gets control over herself, and starts on something else, the mandolin and smoke routine. And then Puddleglum puts the fire out, says his speech and then the Queen, having been thwarted a second time, turns into the snake. But then there is the enchanted, or drugged, Prince Rilian's own summation of what happens when he is tied into the chair. At the end, Prince Rilian says, it is himself who turns into a snake, after which he falls into a faint.

That suggests that LOTGK can somehow control herself, and where and when she turns into a snake. If LOTGK is cursed, you would expect that whenever she got passionate about anything, she might turn into a snake involuntarily. But here we see that LOTGK seems to have done the course in Anger Management, at any rate. LOTGK is all about control, not domination per se. It also suggests that LOTGK has more than one poison at her disposal: The deadly poison to slay Prince Rilian's mother, and another, less potent, one which stuns him into unconsciousness and then starts to wear off after 24 hours and then needs to be re-administered. That is, if the Silver Chair is merely a restraining object as you are saying and has no other magic to help in the process.

The moment he turns into a snake, according to what he says, might be very well the same moment he gets his next daily dose to stun him into forgetfulness. And that is when LOTGK, if she was biting him to do so, would very well be when she does her snake transformation, thus revealing to him who murdered his mother and who LOTGK really is. Since even as a drugged person he still remembers the snake, mirrors in the room might very well give him the impression that it is he who has turned into a snake as LOTGK keeps telling him. And that also implies that LOTGK has some control over her own transformations.

I've also had another thought, a really crazy one: Maybe LOTGK's normal state is as a snake, who can somehow transform into a woman, for a longer and longer time, and what Prince Rilian sees when he is tied into the Silver Chair, when she is with him, is LOTGK reverting back to her normal state?
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jul 28, 2018 2:00 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:That suggests that LOTGK can somehow control herself, and where and when she turns into a snake. If LOTGK is cursed, you would expect that whenever she got passionate about anything, she might turn into a snake involuntarily. But here we see that LOTGK seems to have done the course in Anger Management, at any rate.


That's an interesting thought that losing her cool is what makes the LotGK revert back to her snake form... Lewis does describe that her voice, after Puddleglum stamps out the fire, is utterly different from the sweet tones prior to then. And it's easy to imagine the murder of Caspian's queen as one of hatred and jealousy.

One thing that occurred to me just now about Rilian's story, though... he talks about turning into a snake during his hour, and yet he is bound to the chair by the waist, ankles, knees, elbows and wrists. I'm having a really hard time visualizing how someone bound in such a way could ever turn into a snake... I think I need a diagram. ;)) It's funny, because it's another case where the Witch's claims don't make any sense upon analysis, but she makes people believe them anyway.

Edit: I should've check the Pauline Baynes illustration. :P The drawing isn't clear, but I suppose it could work if the ankles, the knees, and the elbows were each bound with one rope instead of a rope for each limb, and the ropes on the elbows and wrists go all the way around the body/chair instead of just tied to the arms of the chair. I think. ;))
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 30, 2018 5:40 am

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:Edit: I should've check the Pauline Baynes illustration. :P The drawing isn't clear, but I suppose it could work if the ankles, the knees, and the elbows were each bound with one rope instead of a rope for each limb, and the ropes on the elbows and wrists go all the way around the body/chair instead of just tied to the arms of the chair. I think. ;))


I've a copy of Silver Chair on top of my (messy) desk, here. The picture I'm looking at is side on. Yes, Rilian's arms are tied to the chair supports by the wrists, but that is to be expected to stop him lashing out and grabbing someone. It appears he is tied around the throat to the chair, another rope ties him around the chest to the chair, another tie goes right around his waist and the chair. The ties around his legs and ankles could go all around his legs and the chair rather than just separately. It could go either way. The rope around his throat would be the most dangerous as it could strangle him.

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:That's an interesting thought that losing her cool is what makes the LotGK revert back to her snake form... Lewis does describe that her voice, after Puddleglum stamps out the fire, is utterly different from the sweet tones prior to then. And it's easy to imagine the murder of Caspian's queen as one of hatred and jealousy.


Yes, there could be talking snakes and no, this evil, murderous snake would not sound nice and sweet at all. I've another idea, though, that maybe the snake does a vampire-like job on people who get into its clutches, sucking out their life forces. When it kills people it ingests some blood from its victim and so is able to assemble a human identity, even if briefly. Maybe that is why the snake bit Caspian's queen, maybe drugging her first through some wine, making her sleepy. Maybe that is why she wanted Rilian as her captive. Killing the Queen might give her a nice long drink, initially, enough to adopt her LOTGK persona, but to get what LOTGK wanted she would need a more reliable and continuous supply of blood to drink, hence Rilian's confinement and the use of the chair. She'd make sure that Prince Rilian was properly fed and juiced up then take her own meal. When LOTGK achieved what she wanted, such as control of Narnia, she would probably dispose of Prince Rilian, using his persona instead of her own LOTGK one.

But this is getting into PG + or whatever it is. And I don't know if I'm getting too carried away with a very similar case to LOTGK's snake in the Harry Potter series of films. We actually did discuss this in the June 5th Talking Beast episode.

This is what I wrote in that podcast discussion, in the quote below, when some others in the discussion, noted similarities between J.K.Rowling who was actually quite a fan of the Narnia series, though the fearsome snake she uses is a horcrux and at Voldemort's bidding. The snake can talk in a hissy sort of way, and Harry Potter, who seems to have a link to Voldemort, himself, understands what this snake says. This is JK Rowling's take on the snake, which turns into a dead historian called Bathilda to entice Harry Potter into his parents' old house where Nagini could kill him.

me (Wagga) wrote:Quite agree actually. There is quite a resemblance between LOTGK’s shapeshifting into a snake and Nagini impersonating Bathilda in HP/Deathly Hallows. But C.S.Lewis didn’t mess around with different languages. But LOTGK of necessity was a lady and a queen who used her beauty to deceive and lure people into her clutches. She not only looked beautiful but sounded beautiful. And even when she had drugged everyone to agree with everything that she said, Rilian would still have found it difficult to kill this lady if she hadn’t reverted back to the snake she was when she killed Rilian’s mother.


The main difference between Nagini's persona as Bathilda, and LOTGK, is that Bathilda, is an older woman, who has been blinded with cataracts and who is not at all beautiful or enticing. Harry Potter only gets sucked in because he feels sorry for her. Though I happen to like history, and enjoyed the HP series immensely, I'm glad I never called myself Bathilda as a username. #:-s #:-s :)

I also hope the script is written already and that they have a different take on LOTGK to what I am thinking here. And that it is distinctly different from how J.K.R depicted Nagini.
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