The Seven Chronicles

C. S. Lewis, his worlds, and his faith.

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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Oct 14, 2009 9:22 am

To waggawerewolf27,
I don't see how lust and love can equate to the same thing. Lust is a desire of the eyes, but love is a choice with a lot of emotion riding on it. Bern did nothing immoral with regards to his wife, which gives us no basis to call it lust. As you yourself said,
waggawerewolf27 wrote:But he survived, unlike Octesian and Restimar, because he made the right choices. He married the girl of his heart and settled down, to raise a family, which is the right and proper thing to do, especially for a 'nice guy' like Lord Bern. How could he not be rewarded for his chastity before marriage and his fidelity afterwards, especially, when the Dawn Treader arrived, his fidelity to Caspian's father?

I don't see how that can possibly be lust, unless all romantic-type love is lust. Sorry.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 14, 2009 9:26 pm

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote: Lust is a desire of the eyes, but love is a choice with a lot of emotion riding on it.


That might be a fair definition, but I'd put it another way. Desire of the senses is what initially brings a couple together. Love is what determines whether or not a couple can reasonably remain together for any length of time, let alone a lifetime. Desire of the senses (not just eyes) is necessary to start and maintain a courtship and marriage, whilst the couple ascertain what interests, values, hopes and dreams they share together. But carelessly and immorally acted on, without regard for the consequences, and the welfare of the people involved, desire of the senses (Lust) can cause much unhappiness to individuals and destroy relationships, marriages and whole families.

The Seven Deadly Sins, including Lust, aren't necessarily a problem in and of themselves; it is the way they are acted on that matters most. Lord Bern recalls Miraz's unlawful treatment of himself and fellow lords when he recognises Caspian, and also the way Miraz murdered his brother and used Caspian to seize the kingship when his own child was born. Now there is an example of how Lust destroyed Miraz's family. And Pug and his crew's desire to maintain his creature comforts by enslaving passing strangers for money, shows how little regard he has for morality or the welfare of other people, including his own children. X(

I'd agree that Love has a lot of emotion riding on it, for better or worse. The best definition of Love I have ever seen is in 1 Corinthians 13. However, Anger, also a Deadly Sin, is another emotion often associated with Love. Sometimes Anger is even a reasonable emotion, which could be engendered as part of bereavement, when perceiving an injustice, or during a heated argument.

But the 'masterful' leader who picked up that stone knife at Aslan's table ensured all three of the remaining lords stayed there, regardless of whether he wanted to travel further or wanted to return to Narnia. And Lucy's envy of Susan's beauty wasn't really a problem until she was tempted to act on it by saying the Beauty spell. Perhaps the contrast of Lord Bern's own self-discipline and his well-run homestead with the disordered state of the rest of the Lone Islads, suggests that self-discipline, being able to think things through, and respect for other people's rights is what is needed for good leadership. And isn't good leadership a theme right through the entire Seven Chronicles?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Oct 15, 2009 1:56 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Desire of the senses is what initially brings a couple together. Love is what determines whether or not a couple can reasonably remain together for any length of time, let alone a lifetime. Desire of the senses (not just eyes) is necessary to start and maintain a courtship and marriage, whilst the couple ascertain what interests, values, hopes and dreams they share together.


Okay, I am officially confused. Are you saying that there must be physical attraction between people before they can fall in love? If so, then no ugly person will ever be loved. My parents have been happily married for seventeen years, and it did not begin with attraction. I just very firmly disagree with your definitions of love and lust.

I'd agree that Love has a lot of emotion riding on it, for better or worse. The best definition of Love I have ever seen is in 1 Corinthians 13. However, Anger, also a Deadly Sin, is another emotion often associated with Love. Sometimes Anger is even a reasonable emotion, which could be engendered as part of bereavement, when perceiving an injustice, or during a heated argument.


You're right about the 1 Corinthians 13 definition. God is always correct. But the anger thing is not quite the same. There is righteous anger, which Jesus felt for the traders in the Temple courtyard, or a husband can feel if someone toys with his wife. Wrong anger is when (I'll use a little kid example) my brother takes my favorite doll and I hit him. I just displayed wrong anger. But lust is always wrong; however, it does not equate to love.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 15, 2009 3:20 pm

Are you admitting you hit your brother? :-o I'm shocked! Does he actually know what he is doing? Or is he too little? And whilst Lust can be wrong when people act on it wrongly, would you say the lusty first cry of a healthy new-born baby is wrong? Or the associated lust for life? That is why the film PC begins the way it does, I think.

And just because there are any amount of cute little kittens, puppies, babies or even good-looking people around that I could 'fall in love' with, doesn't give me the right to say I must have them for myself when my own babies have grown up, when I already am married, or when I already have sufficient pets. That in my opinion is not only lust, it is pure greed. And greed is always wrong. Like Octesian's arm ring in a dragon's hoard of treasure, and Eustace helping himself to it. ;)

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:Okay, I am officially confused. Are you saying that there must be physical attraction between people before they can fall in love? If so, then no ugly person will ever be loved. My parents have been happily married for seventeen years, and it did not begin with attraction. I just very firmly disagree with your definitions of love and lust.


Congratulations for your parents! :ymapplause: How did your parents meet each other in the first place? /:) And at what point did they realise they were so attracted to each other that they wanted to get married? ;;) :ymblushing:

Because physical attraction is necessary for a marriage to survive any length of time, especially when the couple involved are virtual strangers, or not already romantically linked, as happens in arranged marriages. As King Henry VIII and Anne of Cleves, or George IV and Caroline of Brunswick would have told you. That is, if you ever study British history. But then Charles II, one of the ugliest-looking blokes who ever adorned a royal portrait, never had a shortage of willing ladies to fawn over him. :D Nor did other less than handsome prominent people. And so it is simply untrue to say as you do that if physical attraction is what is needed before people can 'fall in love', then "no ugly person will ever be loved". Because if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is ugliness.

I agree that beautiful people do have an advantage in the marriage stakes - initially. Think of Susan getting all those 'invitations' and marriage proposals. ;) But if beauty is often in the eye of the beholder, it is also true there is more to beauty than meets the eye. What about a man with a beautiful voice? Or people with other desirable talents? What about other attractive characteristics people may have? A beautiful personality? Fascinating interests? Compatible values? Or do they simply smell nice? Or maybe they can cook well. Someone who is agreeable to be with? A true friend? Isn't there also a saying, that handsome is as handsome does?

Isn't this what Lucy needed to know when she was tempted to read the beauty spell in the Magician's book? Why when she greeted Aslan did Lucy look almost as beautiful as the Lucy she saw in the book? And how would you have considered the following people in the Narnia series? Beautiful or ugly? And why, or why not? What is beautiful about them? And what is ugly about them?

Jadis the White Witch?
Her royal ancestors?
Uncle Andrew?
Digory?
Rabadash?
Edmund?
Lucy?
Aravis?
Ahoshta Tarkaan?
The Tisroc?
Shasta?
The Lady of the Green Kirtle?
Rilian?
Ramandu's daughter?
The Duke of Galma's freckled daughter?
Emeth?
Susan?
Polly?
Queen Helen?

Would you define Rabadash's feelings for Susan as lust or love? When he says 'he must have her'?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby narnian_at_heart » Oct 16, 2009 10:10 am

Rabadash's feelings for Susan were definetly lust, I believe.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Oct 16, 2009 4:47 pm

I had a feeling you’d jump on this topic, waggawerewolf27, since you brought it up on the old forum in the Reading Group. I was glad to see that you made it over to new forum. :D I was worried when I didn’t see any posts from you for a while. :-s I’ve been meaning to post to this topic for a while, but I kept getting distracted by other threads. Some of what I have to say will probably relate to things earlier on in the thread.
That article by Dr. Don King was very interesting though I think he may have stretched things a little bit. I think it is fair to say that one can find multiply deadly sins in the books or characters, so some of the lords in VDT might hint at those sins as well. Dr. King wrote, “Let me add here that it is certain Lewis dealt with multiple sins in Narnia; in fact, each book reflects this. Nonetheless, each book does seem to portray one particular deadly sin above the others.” I’m not sure if that means sins in general or deadly sins. Before I read that article, I was thinking that greed seemed to be the common thread for the villains. Envy, glutton, and lust, in the sense of lust for things in general, are very similar to greed. Personally, I think I would call Shift’s deadly sin gluttony rather than envy of power. He seemed more interested in what food he could get than simply having power. While I’ll admit that Edmund’s craving for Turkish Delight did contribute to his going to the White Witch, I don’t think it was his only problem. I wonder if envy of Peter didn’t have a bit to do with it. Before he met the Witch, he was a rather nasty person. Peter says to Edmund “it’s just spite. You’ve always liked being beastly to anyone smaller than yourself.” Perhaps he wanted to have the power Peter had as the eldest. He couldn’t get power over Peter or Susan for that matter so he picked on anyone who was smaller than he. When Edmund is on the way to the White Witch’s house, Lewis writes, “He did want Turkish Delight and to be Prince (and later King) and to pay Peter out for calling him a beast. As for what the Witch would do with the others, he didn’t want her to be particularly nice to them – certainly not to put them on the same level as himself.” Clearly Edmund wants to be more important than the rest. I think envy and lust were an important part of the villainy of Jadis and LOTGK. They were envious of Narnia and lusted after it. I wonder why the LOTGK chose Rilian for her purpose. She could have used practically anyone. She might have wanted someone of royal blood or maybe she was lusting after Rilian in a way (he was described as hansom and her plan was to marry him). I think Rabadash represents five of the deadly sins. He is greedy, lusts after Susan in the sexual sense, is very angry, is envious of the Northern lands, and is very proud.
As for the seven Lords, I can see how Octesian could be connected to greed. I don’t think lust was his problem. I think of sloth as his sin. Bern: I came thus far with my six fellows, loved a girl of these islands, and felt I had enough of the sea. And there was no purpose in returning to Narnia while [Miraz] held the reins. So I married and have lived here ever since.” “I’ve wondered about my friends and wondered what there really is behind that horizon. … yet I am always half ashamed that I stayed behind.” The way he puts it sounds like “Well I didn’t want to continue on the voyage and I couldn’t go back so I figured I’d might as well stay her and marry.” It was almost that he was too lazy to go on. I think that might have something to do with why he is “half ashamed.” Although he does petition the government about the slave trade, one wonders if he really did all he could to stop it. I don’t know if this can be related to sloth but he also does not want Caspian to leave because he fears war. Is he too lazy to put in the effort needed to fight if war should arise and thus want someone else to do it or is he just insecure and not think he is up to the challenge? Restimar could be associated with pride. (I don’t agree that the pool was enchanted in the sense that it draws people to it and makes them lose their minds). I think of it this way: Restimar thinks he is an excellent swimmer; far too good to have to take precautions about depth. I think waggawerewolf27 put it well.
waggawerewolf27 wrote:It seems he just saw a nice pool for swimming, stripped off and dived in as if he were a Swimming Champ after Gold medals at the Olympics.
Lord Rhoop, I think could be having problems with Lust. He lusted after whatever it was that he daydreamed about. Hmm, that leaves envy, anger, and gluttony for the three sleeping lords. I think it is safe to say that the one who picked up the knife had a problem with anger and the one who said “mustard, please” could be on the gluttonous side. I’m not sure how envy would relate to the one who wanted to return to Narnia though. :-\
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 17, 2009 2:50 am

I was in London, Paris, York and Scotland for over a month and Internet access was problematic at best. Either it was too expensive to post or else there were problems with keyboards, getting on sites at all, out of order computers, lack of network reception or the Narniaweb site being exchanged. Since then I have been recovering from jetlag and much else. #:-s Thanks for asking. :)

I do absolutely agree that Rabadash lusts after Susan in the sexual sense, even though Lazaraleen insists that he was 'head over heels in love' with her - Susan, that is. But I also think Rabadash (and his father) lust after Narnia as well, in a power sense, and even in an acquisitive sense, much as Lazaraleen, herself, would lust after that snazzy, must-have, traffic-stopper of a new dress she would love to flaunt the next time she leaves her mansion. =)) But of course, a desirable new dress, if you can afford it, isn't much of a problem, really. We do have to change our clothes to launder them sometimes, especially after parading around in Tashbaan's dusty streets, now don't we? ;)

pattertwig's pal wrote: Hmm, that leaves envy, anger, and gluttony for the three sleeping lords. I think it is safe to say that the one who picked up the knife had a problem with anger and the one who said “mustard, please” could be on the gluttonous side. I’m not sure how envy would relate to the one who wanted to return to Narnia though.


I'm not sure either how envy would relate to any of the final three lords. I thought Lord Rhoop would make a much better fit for envy. There is a saying: Do not judge of a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes'. Often daydreams do have a component of envy, such as when the daydreamer would love to be as wealthy as the latest powerball winner, as beautiful as Princess Diana, or as popular or powerful as the President of the United States. But I've read accounts of how lottery winners found their unexpected win more of a nightmare than a benefit.

Originally I thought that sloth, gluttony and anger would fit the last three lords better. I did misread the order in which they appear. When Caspian and his Dawn Treader companions first find the Lords the first or nearest says 'I'll go Eastward no more. Out oars for Narnia', the second says 'Weren't born to live like animals. Get to the East while you've a chance - lands behind the sun'. Whilst the third says 'Mustard please'. Caspian then identifies the lords as Revilian, Argoz and lastly, Mavramorn. If the third lord is Revilian, as I originally thought, then he is the angry one. Whilst Argoz who wanted to go on for further adventures, could be accused fairly of gluttony, that is to say, not knowing when he already had enough of travel.

When Ramandu's daughter explains what happened, she reverses the order, starting with the first lord being the one who wanted to stay put - the lord who said 'mustard please'. I think that was Mavramorn, and yes, he could be accused of either sloth, for staying put, or else gluttony to enjoy such a big feast. After his considerably long speech about travelling ever onwards, it turns out it is Argoz who seized the knife and therefore he is the one to characterise anger. I suppose Revilian, who wanted to return to Narnia, might be accused of sloth for wanting to return to Narnia instead of travelling on, but I don't see how envy would fit him. Unless homesickness and Caspian's own attitude to the Pevensies suggest a sort of envy.

But then, if Revilian could be regarded as lazy for wanting to return to Narnia, how much more would laziness apply to Lord Bern who was the first to leave the Seven Lords' ship? I do agree with you how sloth could fit Lord Bern. Especially when the state of Governor Gumpas' garrison and administration of the Lone Islands is also taken into account.

And if Lord Bern isn't the lustful one, who is? Lord Rhoop does seem a good candidate considering that he followed his daydreams, and found they were a nightmare, instead. Much like Rabadash might have found his pursuit of Susan. Anyway, it is worth consideration. B-)
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Oct 17, 2009 7:53 am

waggawerewolf27 wrote: I thought Lord Rhoop would make a much better fit for envy. There is a saying: Do not judge of a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes'. Often daydreams do have a component of envy, such as when the daydreamer would love to be as wealthy as the latest powerball winner, as beautiful as Princess Diana, or as popular or powerful as the President of the United States. But I've read accounts of how lottery winners found their unexpected win more of a nightmare than a benefit.

That is a good point. Lord Rhoop could be envy.

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Originally I thought that sloth, gluttony and anger would fit the last three lords better. I did misread the order in which they appear. When Caspian and his Dawn Treader companions first find the Lords the first or nearest says 'I'll go Eastward no more. Out oars for Narnia', the second says 'Weren't born to live like animals. Get to the East while you've a chance - lands behind the sun'. Whilst the third says 'Mustard please'. Caspian then identifies the lords as Revilian, Argoz and lastly, Mavramorn. If the third lord is Revilian, as I originally thought, then he is the angry one. Whilst Argoz who wanted to go on for further adventures, could be accused fairly of gluttony, that is to say, not knowing when he already had enough of travel.
I was reading through the descriptions yesterday and I couldn’t figure out which name when with which one. I suppose it depends on where the people describing them start. I know we can call them Lord East, Lord Home, and Lord Mustard. ;)

waggawerewolf27 wrote:And if Lord Bern isn't the lustful one, who is? Lord Rhoop does seem a good candidate considering that he followed his daydreams, and found they were a nightmare, instead.
I think Lord East could be considered lust since he lusts after traveling to the west. He could also lust after power over the other two. Although, angry is probably better for him. Lord Mustard is the best candidate for gluttony. That would leave Lord Home with anger. Since all three lords got angry I guess that could work. :-\
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 19, 2009 1:26 pm

I guess you could be right about the Seven Missing Lords and the Seven Deadly Sins. And yes, Lust could be a matter of wanting to get one's own way, and that the Lord who picked up the knife was the one who wanted to get his own way most.

What about the opposing virtues? Does anyone in any of the books (apart from Aslan) show examples of liberality, chastity, humility, kindness, diligence, patience or abstinence? What about the Seven Heavenly Virtues of Temperance, Prudence, Justice, Courage, Faith, Hope and Charity?

I thought that Trufflehunter in PC was a good example of patience. Unlike Nikabrik.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 19, 2009 8:43 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:What about the opposing virtues? Does anyone in any of the books (apart from Aslan) show examples of liberality, chastity, humility, kindness, diligence, patience or abstinence? What about the Seven Heavenly Virtues of Temperance, Prudence, Justice, Courage, Faith, Hope and Charity?
Great questions, wagga ... as usual. ;) I don't have much to offer in answer, but my first thought for the virtue of Courage is Lucy. In LWW, she goes into the wardrobe how many times? She's willing to befriend Mr. Tumnus, a complete stranger, and have tea with him. And in VDT, Lucy accepts the Dufflepuds' challenge to go to Coriakin's house and say the magic spell. I call that courageous. :)
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 25, 2009 3:47 am

Yes, Lucy does become Queen Lucy the Valiant, doesn't she? And of course we have King Edmund the Just. If Queen Susan is a good example of prudence, then would King Peter stand for Temperance? Do our four Kings and Queens of Narnia stand for the four Cardinal Virtues?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby 2awesomenarnians » Nov 22, 2009 2:24 pm

You all probably knew this but the narnia series is mostly christianity(the fall,jesus christ dyeing on the cross,or stone table so that is the purpose not the 7 sins
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Mar 13, 2010 8:06 pm

2awesomenarnians wrote:You all probably knew this but the narnia series is mostly christianity(the fall,jesus christ dyeing on the cross,or stone table so that is the purpose not the 7 sins


Well that might be true for the first book in the series, LWW, which is definitely about Aslan dying on the Stone Table and what came of it. But although it may be true to some extent of the other books, it isn't necessarily the whole truth about the rest of the series. And the seven deadly sins are everything to do with Christianity, Judaism, Islam and what is considered wrong and right in other faiths as well.

The Seven Deadlies are the ones that tempt us to do the wrong thing, and the whole series is permeated with them and what not to do, how to avoid temptation, and what motivates us to do the right thing.

Nowhere is this more true than in Voyage of the Dawn Treader, especially now that Michael Apted has gone on record as saying that temptation is definitely a major theme, even if there are others worth exploring. In a thread called Theme of the movie:Temptation up in the film section, one of the contributors, Bother Eustace made an excellent list of those in VDT alone:

Bother Eustace wrote:1. Eustace in the Dragon Treasure Trove
2. Lucy and Coriakin's book
3. Caspian and Edmund at Deathwater Island
4. Caspian and the end of the World
5. The Sailors at Dark Island
6. The last three Lords at Ramandu's island (one of them grabbed the knife)
7. (this one may be pushing it) Gumpas was overcome with temptation and greed, which led to the slave trade taking deep root in the Lone Islands


What about the following other temptations not mentioned? The temptation for Lord Rhoop to go to Dark Island in the first place? The temptation of the sailors on Ramandu's Island? Eustace's temptation to steal the water? And probably there are others I haven't thought about yet. All of these 'temptations' might have everything to do with the 7 deadly sins of Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Jealousy, Sloth and Pride, mightn't they? And wasn't Jesus' mission to deliver us from sin? Don't we pray 'Lead us not into temptation' as Jesus taught us?

What about the other books? Isn't temptation a major feature of them, even LWW? What about the temptation of the Turkish Delight, and the drink? The temptations Digory Kirk faced in Charn, and in fetching the apple, in Magician's Nephew? Or Peter going his own way in Prince Caspian, or Susan's not believing Lucy? Now that is four of the seven books. Horse and his boy shows a few temptations as well, doesn't it? Shasta's temptation not to wait until the others turned up, for example? Or Susan's temptation to marry Rabadash? Whilst in Last Battle, Shift subverts and betrays Narnia to the Calormenes under Tirian's nose.

Silver Chair also provides plenty of examples of temptation and giving in to it. Take these for example:

1.Rilian seeking revenge for his mother's death led him straight into the snare of the Emerald Witch. Anger?

2.Caspian in pain and grief, nearly setting onto Drinian. Anger, again?

3. Jill showing off by the cliff edge. Pride?

4. Eustace not listening to Jill. Anger?

5. Repeating the signs and Jill's failing to do so. Sloth.

6. Wanting to go to Harfang instead of concentrating on obeying the signs. Sloth.

7. What about the temptation not to free Rilian from the chair? Sloth again?

8. The Witch's blandishments, using drugs and hypnotism, to get everyone to go along with her point of view to deny Aslan and Narnia has everything to do with messing with the travellers' ability and will to resist temptation.

9. What about Rilian's temptation to go to Bism, and Jill and Puddleglum having to drag him away from the edge of the chasm?

10. And lastly, having finished their mission, Jill and Eustace preside over Aslan's receiving Caspian into his own country. Aslan tells Caspian, now washed in his blood, that he can no longer want wrong things, didn't he?

Can you truthfully tell me now that the Seven Deadly Sins have nothing to do with Christianity and our sinful nature?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Lady Haleth » Jun 01, 2010 2:27 pm

Well, the number seven is traditionally significant and holy, since God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh.
As for the discussion about love and lust (at least the sexual kind), I think Lewis himself had the best definition.
Sexual desire, without Eros [romantic love], wants it, the thing in itself; Eros wants the beloved. (From The Four Loves, page 94.)
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Aravis Narnia » Jun 05, 2010 5:23 pm

Envy? Well, Shift is envious of the One that has the true power. Hence he uses Puzzle as a puppet in order to get the Narnia inhabitants to obey him.

Avarice and greed? Caspian wants the gold from Deathwater Island badly! And this is greed loosely- but Lucy does want to possess physical beauty very very much.

I admit that my cardinal sin IS pride. Maybe that is one of the reasons why I identify with Aravis so much.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Lady Haleth » Jun 06, 2010 5:10 am

Well, in some of his other books, Lewis talked about pride as though it was the worst of all sins, because it is essentially a spiritual sin, the first sin of any created being before there were people.
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