The Seven Chronicles

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The Seven Chronicles

Postby greenleaf23 » Sep 25, 2009 10:40 am

The other day I heard that each of the seven Chronicles corresponds to one of the seven deadly sins. I never heard this before, and wondered if anyone else had and. I figured NarniaWeb is the place to ask :P Any thoughts?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby TheGeneral » Sep 25, 2009 3:31 pm

what are the seven deadly sins?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 25, 2009 8:17 pm

Yes I have heard that each of the Narnian chronicles could correspond with one of the Seven Deadly Sins. I'll list what I found out below.

The seven deadly sins were formulated in their present form by Pope Gregory the Great, around 600 AD, through his work, the Morales, a study of the Hebrew book of Job. The seven deadly sins are:

1. Gluttony, Latin name Gula, Narnian Chronicle is LWW, mainly because of Edmund's gluttonous craving for Turkish Delight.

2. Lust, Latin name Luxuria, Narnian Chronicle is PC. Lust in the earliest definitions applied to other things besides physical love, power, in particular.

3. Greed, Latin name Avaritia, Narnian Chronicle is VDT, due not only to Eustace's experiences on Dragon Island, but also to the adventurers' experiences elsewhere. Also holds the idea that Greed leads to the other six sins.

4. Sloth, Latin name is Acedia. Narnian Chronicle is SC, in which Jill keeps forgetting to remember or recite the signs Aslan gave her. Originally this sin was called Tristia, or Sadness/Depression. Think of Puddleglum the Pessimist.

5. Pride, Latin name is Superbia. Chronicle is HHB of course. Who could be prouder than Rabadash, Bree or Aravis?

6. Anger, or Ira in its Latin form. Would you agree that MN is the Chronicle which fits this particular sin? Would you describe Jadis, Digory or Uncle Andrew as angry?

7. Envy, or Invidia, its Latin translation. How does this sin fit LB?

You can find out more about the seven deadly sins on this website
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby TheGeneral » Sep 26, 2009 10:07 pm

That is weird, never heard of it before
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby aslansothername » Sep 27, 2009 4:09 pm

If you look at all the seven deadly sins, it is a little hard to put them all with every book. But I've never hear of that before. (btw I'm listening to LWW music right now as I'm typing, but thought I'd put that in it has nothing to do with this post, but I thought it was funny.:) )
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 27, 2009 4:14 pm

You will find that the Seven Deadly Sins is most definitely a long-standing Judeo/Christian concept, along with other Biblical sevens. A related concept is the Seven Opposing Virtues, where Abstinence opposes Gluttony, Chastity opposes Lust, Generosity opposes Greed, Diligence opposes Sloth, Humility opposes Pride, Patience opposes Anger, whilst Kindness opposes Envy.

Then there are the Seven Heavenly Virtues, consisting of the four Classical virtues of Temperance, Prudence, Justice and Courage combined with the three Theological virtues mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13 of Faith, Hope and Charity. You may be sure that C.S.Lewis was well acquainted with these concepts as even before he became Christian he was a noted Oxford medieval scholar.

You can find the relationship between the Narnia Chronicles and the Seven Deadly Sins discussed in this online article. I agree with the author, Dr King, that it isn't surprising to find such a relationship, and well before I saw this article I have thought that the Seven Missing lords of VDT, at any rate, had something to do with these Seven Deadly Sins. I even expressed this idea about VDT in the introduction and conclusion of an essay I wrote elsewhere on Internet. The connection between Greed, Dragon Island, Octesian and Eustace is just too loud and clear.

The question is, how would others match the Sins, the Virtues etc with all Seven Chronicles? Would you agree that the Seven Missing Lords, or the islands where they were found, might have a connection with the Seven Deadly Sins? Why or why not?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby 220chrisTian » Sep 28, 2009 4:46 pm

Thanks for opening this thread, greenleaf23! waggawaggawerewolf27: deep stuff! :ymapplause:

I learned about the 7 deadly sins, a medieval concept [and theology?], in grad school. I think one of the most famous works in which they appear is the 14th-century Piers Plowman. Regarding whether and how they correspond with the 7 missing lords in VDT, I'll have to get back with ya. ;)
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Hermitess of Narnia » Oct 01, 2009 3:12 pm

I don't think they were written to correspond. I think the books cover major areas we sin in and the Seven Deadly sins do also.

For example:
Gluttony is also in LB with Shift and the SC with the giants at Harfang.

Lust for power is shown more in Jadis' lust for the crown. Miraz already had the power in the book.

Greed, Edmund is even greedier than Eustace, he would turn his siblings over to a sorceress for power. LotGK is greedy for Narnia, the Tisroc [may he live forever], and Rishda are greedy for power.

Reepicheep has a lot of pride too.

Anger is in almost all the books, it is very pronounced in LWW and HHB also.

Envy is shown by Glozelle and Sopespian.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Oct 02, 2009 5:32 am

I have to agree with Hermitess of Narnia; I think the books did not focus on one of the sins at a time, one per book.

Examples:
LWW has greed in it, as well as pride, not just gluttony. (and that's just Edmund!)
SC has sloth, anger, and pride (again).
LB shows lust (Shift wants power) and pride again... in fact, all of them have pride.*
And I could say the same about any of the others.

I have to say that the books seem to show all human sins at some point or another, not just one of the Seven Deadlies. And really, can you lust (strictly talking power, here) without being greedy? Can you envy someone without being proud enough to think you deserve whatever they have? It's kind of like the Ten Commandments: break one, you break them all.

*It's the most basic sin, an the first: Adam and Eve (okay, I'll be fair and say Eve was first) were proud enough to believe they could be like God, even before they ate the fruit. So pride is a given for any of the books.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 03, 2009 2:02 pm

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:LWW has greed in it, as well as pride, not just gluttony. (and that's just Edmund!)
SC has sloth, anger, and pride (again).
LB shows lust (Shift wants power) and pride again... in fact, all of them have pride.*
And I could say the same about any of the others.

*It's the most basic sin, and the first: Adam and Eve (okay, I'll be fair and say Eve was first) were proud enough to believe they could be like God, even before they ate the fruit. So pride is a given for any of the books.
Good point on pride! And good reading of Genesis 3. ;) Wanting to be like God is the first sin of man [the reason for our downfall] and most basic of mankind. What did Edmund want in LWW? To be king. But he didn't want to share power with his brother and sisters. He wanted to sit on a throne all by himself, next to the White Witch. Isn't this what happens to us? We don't want to be servants, to be humble. We want to exalt ourselves, make a name for ourselves, climb the ladder of success, steal and sit on a throne of power. We want power and we don't want to share it with anyone. And the devil uses that pride and desire for power to hook us. But what happened to Edmund? He ended up in a dungeon, degraded and ashamed. And that's what happens to us if we let the devil drive our sinful desires. :(

Compare all this to Aslan. He's THE king of beasts! And yet he allows the White Witch and her cronies to tie him up, shave him, and kill him. Aslan takes the lowest place. This is just what Jesus Christ did. He "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" [Philippians 2:7-8]. Jesus Christ is "meek and lowly in heart" [Matthew 11:29]. Isn't it ironic that we have to learn humility from the King, who sits on the throne in heaven? /:)

I love the transformation in Edmund in PC [movie]! He willingly takes orders from High King Peter, even when the latter exhibits some pride and/or lust for power and wrongly thinks Lucy didn't see Aslan. Edmund assents to Lucy's sighting of Aslan even when he didn't see Aslan for himself. And he, like the others, fights to put Prince Caspian on his throne. Edmund knows his place and has no pride. :)

Of course, in VDT Edmund and King Caspian fight over Deathwater Island. What is this? Temporary greed and lust for power. 8-| And why does Edmund keep reminding Caspian that he's the high king in the absence of Peter? That he's really the one in charge? /:)
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Oct 03, 2009 4:05 pm

220chrisTian wrote:Isn't [pride] what happens to us? We don't want to be servants, to be humble. We want to exalt ourselves, make a name for ourselves, climb the ladder of success, steal and sit on a throne of power. We want power and we don't want to share it with anyone. And the devil uses that pride and desire for power to hook us. But what happened to Edmund? He ended up in a dungeon, degraded and ashamed. And that's what happens to us if we let the devil drive our sinful desires. :(


Well put! You've got a way with words. Pride is actually behind a lot of other sins, too. And eve before Adam and Eve, Satan (then Lucifer) was proud enough to want to be like God, and to believe that he could pull it off. Talk about arrogant!

Of course, in VDT Edmund and King Caspian fight over Deathwater Island. What is this? Temporary greed and lust for power. 8-| And why does Edmund keep reminding Caspian that he's the high king in the absence of Peter? That he's really the one in charge? /:)


Does it seem to you like the Golden Pool (I don't know what else to call it) kind of cast a spell over Ed and Caspian? Edmund hadn't asserted any authority up to that point, and he didn't after that, nor had Caspian treated Ed and Lucy with anything but respect and friendship (he tried with Eustace, but it didn't succeed very well until after the un-dragoning escapade, lol). And then, all of a sudden, they are both trying to claim the right to the wealth. Seems like magic to me.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 03, 2009 7:03 pm

220chrisTian wrote:I love the transformation in Edmund in PC [movie]! He willingly takes orders from High King Peter, even when the latter exhibits some pride and/or lust for power and wrongly thinks Lucy didn't see Aslan. Edmund assents to Lucy's sighting of Aslan even when he didn't see Aslan for himself. And he, like the others, fights to put Prince Caspian on his throne. Edmund knows his place and has no pride. :)

Of course, in VDT Edmund and King Caspian fight over Deathwater Island. What is this? Temporary greed and lust for power. 8-| And why does Edmund keep reminding Caspian that he's the high king in the absence of Peter? That he's really the one in charge? /:)


Yes, after the events of PC you don't expect Edmund to be arguing with Caspian. But Edmund has learned that he loves his own brother and sisters. He might like Caspian as a friend, but don't forget that Deathwater Island is only one of Caspian's Miraz moments. What really happened on Deathwater Island is that Caspian got what is called gold fever, seeing himself the richest King in the world. He wanted to claim the island as a possession of Narnia. Greed again, maybe. But he bound all his companions to secrecy, on pain of death, which, excusing the pun, is a bit rich, coming from him.

Edmund points out that he is no subject to Caspian, and that it is the other way around, since Caspian is under allegiance to King Peter, Edmund's brother. Thus begins the quarrel, over who ranks higher. And Lucy puts her bib in, to complain of boys being swaggering, bullying idiots. Now whatever the greed involved, all of that is pride, pure pride. And I can't think of anything more symbolic of pride than the naked golden statue that Lord Restimar became. Did he, er, rest on his laurels? Was his rest marred by arrogant dismissiveness?

In fact this is what first made me think there is a link between the Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Missing Lords in VDT. You can't miss the connection between Lord Octesian, his arm ring, Eustace, the dragon and Greed. Similarly there has to be a strong link between golden statues and Pride. Maybe it is because I'm not used to statues being gilded in Oz, unlike the statue below.

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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 04, 2009 12:23 pm

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:Does it seem to you like the Golden Pool (I don't know what else to call it) kind of cast a spell over Ed and Caspian? Edmund hadn't asserted any authority up to that point, and he didn't after that, nor had Caspian treated Ed and Lucy with anything but respect and friendship (he tried with Eustace, but it didn't succeed very well until after the un-dragoning escapade, lol). And then, all of a sudden, they are both trying to claim the right to the wealth. Seems like magic to me.
Yes, it's a magic spell of sorts that Aslan had to break by giving them amnesia. But I looked in my VDT notes and I found another instance where Edmund asserts his authority: when Caspian wants to abandon Narnia and go to Aslan's Country, or at least the edge of the world. But here, Edmund and the others are right. Caspian cannot abandon Narnia. His desire to go to AC seems right, but it's wrong for him because his duty is to rule Narnia. There's no prophecy over him. ;)

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Now whatever the greed involved, all of that is pride, pure pride. And I can't think of anything more symbolic of pride than the naked golden statue that Lord Restimar became. Did he, er, rest on his laurels? Was his rest marred by arrogant dismissiveness?
LOL! Nice puns! While reading about Lord Restimar, I first thought of Narcissus. We know why Edmund and the others looked in the bottom of the pool; they saw a gold statue, Lord Restimar. But why did he initially look in the pool? To my knowledge there wasn't much gold, or golden objects, at the bottom before he fell in. :-\

waggawerewolf27 wrote:In fact this is what first made me think there is a link between the Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Missing Lords in VDT. You can't miss the connection between Lord Octesian, his arm ring, Eustace, the dragon and Greed.
Interesting. Good point. :)

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Similarly there has to be a strong link between golden statues and Pride. Maybe it is because I'm not used to statues being gilded in Oz, unlike the statue below. Image
LOL! Who is this? Where is this?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 04, 2009 2:56 pm

Statue of St Joan of Arc in Place Des Pyramides, Paris, France. In Paris they go in for golden statues, it seems. Especially of angels, and angels' wings. We have a statue of St Joan of Arc outside of the State Library of Victoria in Melbourne but it isn't golden or painted in gold leaf, nor are any other statues in Oz.

As for why did Restimar look in the pool, I think it was more a case of why didn't he look in the pool? Shouldn't he have tested the water first, as an elementary precaution in swimming in unknown waters? It seems he just saw a nice pool for swimming, stripped off and dived in as if he were a Swimming Champ after Gold medals at the Olympics.

But having matched Restimar and Octesian to Pride and Greed, how would you match the other five lords?
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Oct 12, 2009 5:02 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:As for why did Restimar look in the pool, I think it was more a case of why didn't he look in the pool? Shouldn't he have tested the water first, as an elementary precaution in swimming in unknown waters? It seems he just saw a nice pool for swimming, stripped off and dived in as if he were a Swimming Champ after Gold medals at the Olympics.


It's the spell of the pool. It's a draw that Caspian and his group also felt: Eustace commented that the water was so clear and looked inviting on a hot day. Reepicheep agreed, and later said, when Edmund had noted what a "narrow escape" they had had:
"Narrow, indeed! Anyone's finger, anyone's foot, anyone's whisker or tail might have slipped into the water at any moment.

The pool just has this enchantment laid on it, that makes you lose your head and want it, either the gold it can make, or to actually swim in it. Kind of makes you 8-} .

waggawerewolf27 wrote:But having matched Restimar and Octesian to Pride and Greed, how would you match the other five lords?


I don't think the lords do exemplify the Seven Sins, either. What sin can you attach to Rhoop? And then the three lords who quarreled at the Table on Ramandu's Island; which one of the Seven is trying to use a knife on your companions? And Bern seems pretty nice... He left ship because he fell in love and saw no point in returning to Narnia. In his time on the Lone Islands, he apparently is active in the government, asking the Governor repeatedly to eliminate the slave trade. I don't see a problem with that.
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Re: The Seven Chronicles

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Oct 13, 2009 1:50 am

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:It's the spell of the pool. It's a draw that Caspian and his group also felt: Eustace commented that the water was so clear and looked inviting on a hot day. Reepicheep agreed, and later said, when Edmund had noted what a "narrow escape" they had had:
"Narrow, indeed! Anyone's finger, anyone's foot, anyone's whisker or tail might have slipped into the water at any moment.
The pool just has this enchantment laid on it, that makes you lose your head and want it, either the gold it can make, or to actually swim in it. Kind of makes you 8-} .


Now you are onto something. Really. There is many a pool that casts an allure. :) That nice swimming pool on a hot day for one, and Restimar is a strong swimmer, or I hope he was. :-o Reepicheep isn't proud, now is he? Not even about his tail, the replacement of which Aslan made a point of commenting about at the end of PC. ;) And of course there are pools and pools. Who are a few swimming champions who have shone in the Olympics? Surely not Eric the Eel (Sydney Olympics), Ian Thorpe, Kieren Perkins and many others, including Dutch, USA and other swimmers? Is all that golden glory really worth it?

I won't quote the last paragraph of your post. Lord Bern is the easiest one to match to a Deadly Sin. In fact when I think about it, he is the one who actually clinches the deal. I agree that he fared the best of all the seven lords, that the other four didn't do so well, and that of the seven, the two that died seem to have the most befitting downfalls.

But look at Lord Bern's record. Like Octesian and Restimar would do later, for greed and pride, he, too, can be associated with a 'Deadly Sin', that of Lust. After all, Lord Bern did jump ship, because he berned with passion for the fair lady who captured his attention (pun absolutely intended). But he survived, unlike Octesian and Restimar, because he made the right choices. He married the girl of his heart and settled down, to raise a family, which is the right and proper thing to do, especially for a 'nice guy' like Lord Bern. How could he not be rewarded for his chastity before marriage and his fidelity afterwards, especially, when the Dawn Treader arrived, his fidelity to Caspian's father?

Now I've said elsewhere that 'Luxuria' or Lust can be associated with more things than physical passion, such as power and much else. What it all boils down to for the person tempted by Lust is whether or not he/she regards other beings as creatures with rights, ambitions, achievements and choices of their own to make, or whether, like the slave traders, he/she thinks that other people are there to be sold and exploited for his/her own convenience, much like Pug and his mates, who don't give a toss for whatever their slaves might feel.

Lord Rhoop is the one that is most problematical, since he went to the Dark Island, thinking that it was the place where dreams came true. And, unlike the other six lords, his adventure is not directly linked to an adventure the Dawn Treader voyagers had, which directly relates to one of the Deadly Sins. It depends on what sort of dreams that Lord Rhoop had, what is his personal desires, hopes and fears. There is an old saying: 'Do not judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes.' To be someone else, to live their dreams, might also be a nightmare.

Last of all there are the three Lords at Ramandu's Island. Like the Voyagers of the Dawn Treader it seems these three Lords were also faced with a three-way dilemma, whether to go on, stay at Aslan's Table or return to Narnia. Once again the names give a clue, and also what each lord said when Caspian and his companions tried to rouse them. Argoz (Argosy - a journey) wanted to continue further - 'Men were not meant to live as animals' he said, as this masterful Lord grabbed a certain stone knife. Was he angry or gluttonous to want to continue further?

And then there was Mavramorn (Something to do with the morning?) whose only comment was 'mustard please' 8-| . The last Lord was Revilian (Reveille - Awakening?) whose comment was 'Out oars for Narnia'. Revilian's name might have more to do with 'revile' but the remaining three lords and the remaining three Sins (Gluttony, Sloth and Anger) might be interchangeable. Was it gluttony, anger or Sloth which kept those three sleepers where they were?

Meanwhile, cheers!
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