Emeth in Aslan's Country

C. S. Lewis, his worlds, and his faith.

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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby narnian1 » Sep 25, 2009 12:23 pm


narnian1: I assume you're referring to the following passage [NKJV].
Romans 2:12-16 wrote:For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The Gentiles who don't have the law will be judged without it. They'll be judged by their conscience, which is a law to them. But that isn't salvation, is it? ;)




Well,
it's not salvation in the sense your thinking it.
but who's to say what will be God's judgement based on their conscience,
it might be not be for salvation... but then again it might be for God doesn't see as we do.

As was the case here for Emeth,
the world (Narnia and Calormen), saw things with one perspective, but Aslan saw it quite differently. This piece still puzzles me, because after all, it might not even be intended as a parallel to christianity- it might be there just for the story's sake.
(although I do feel it's of importance).
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby TheGeneral » Sep 25, 2009 8:13 pm

Emeth is one of my favorite characters in the Narnia chronicles. His scene in LB is one of the most memorable scenes for me, I remember being so happy that he was in Aslan's country (I didn't like the idea of a whole race being 'evil')
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Sep 26, 2009 9:43 am

220chrisTian wrote
Ah! I think I got you now.
It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable?


If you remember, the dwarves still thought they were in the stable, even to the extreme of feeling "walls". They "refused to be taken in", or to believe in something that required faith. So did the Calormen guard, who could not see the sky or grass, or hear Lucy, Peter, ect.
But Emeth just noticed the sunlight and grass and sky right off the bat. He had faith in a world of supernatural powers, that there was a "god", and so he could see the Seven Friends as well as the world.

]Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others.


The stable only existed in the Old Narnia; it was only a gateway to the Real Narnia.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby narnian1 » Sep 26, 2009 10:11 am

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:220chrisTian wrote

Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others.


The stable only existed in the Old Narnia; it was only a gateway to the Real Narnia.



yes I know,
which is why he was beyond that already, as in- a whole other world.

The dwarfs, as you stated, refused to be taken in and they were still "in" the stable even though Lucy and the others were not "in" it, yet were able to interact with them.

ah never mind,
I don't think I am stating myself clearly.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Sep 27, 2009 12:24 pm

narnian1 said
yes I know,
which is why he was beyond that already, as in- a whole other world.


The stable doesn't exist within the real Narnia. There is no "other world" beyond the stable. It's only a doorway to the Real Narnia within Aslan's country. The dwarves only think there's a stable.

The dwarfs, as you stated, refused to be taken in and they were still "in" the stable even though Lucy and the others were not "in" it, yet were able to interact with them.


The dwarves weren't really in the stable, because, as I said in my last paragraph, there is no stable in the real Narnia. Aslan says that "Their prison is only in their minds, yet they are in that prison." That's why Lucy, Tirian, Jill, ect. could interact with them.
Maybe I'm misinterrpreting what you said, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Sep 27, 2009 1:20 pm

220chrisTian wrote: Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others.

220chrisTian wrote: Ah! I think I got you now. It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable?

Both of the above were wrongly attributed to me. I think narnian1 wrote the following: "It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable? Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others."

I cannot contribute much to this discussion until I re-read the book, which I now think a necessity if the discussion and my responses are to make much sense. :ymblushing:
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Sep 29, 2009 2:38 pm

220chrisTian wrote:
Both of the above were wrongly attributed to me. I think narnian1 wrote the following: "It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable? Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others."


To the real 220chriTian:
Whoops! Sorry about that... :ymblushing: I'll be more careful in future. My apologies.

You definitely should read LB again! It's written much more mystically and less defined and down-to-earth than the others. It has an almost ethereal sense of being like the book of Revelation. Kind of the way Tolkien's Ainulindale reads like Genesis.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Sep 29, 2009 4:40 pm

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:To the real 220chriTian: Whoops! Sorry about that... :ymblushing: I'll be more careful in future. My apologies.
It's okay! :ymhug:

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:You definitely should read LB again! It's written much more mystically and less defined and down-to-earth than the others. It has an almost ethereal sense of being like the book of Revelation.
Really? Interesting! I think I should read LB again. ;)

FYI: when I heard Misty Edwards' song "As in the days of Noah" for the first time today I couldn't help but think of LB. The song is about the Second Coming of Christ. The video has apt pics. References: Genesis 6-7, Matthew 24:37-39, Revelation 6:16. :)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Oct 01, 2009 10:04 am

Thanks for the tip, 220chrisTain. I'll be sure to check that reference out.

(Btw, I posted from my Wii. I love this machine!)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Aslan's Follower » Oct 03, 2009 6:31 pm

I know this is going a few posts back but I thought I would say it anyway:

Whether you are judged by the Law of God or by your own conscience you are still going to be condemned because 'all have sinned'. Remember although we are judged by the law, no man is saved by the Law. The Law is not a way to salvation but a means of showing man his own sinfulness so that he will give up all hope of saving himself and fall on Christ. A man may be judged by his conscience but that does not mean that he can be saved by his conscience. The conscience condemns a man and shows him his need for salvation.

It is all very well and good discussing different possibilities of what Lewis meant (with the situation with Emeth). But I am afraid that we are going to have to face the fact that Lewis did not have a faultless theology. If you want to know what Lewis believed I highly recommend you read Mere Christianity or get the audio book. It was very interesting to me to see the relation between what he says he believes in Mere Christianity and what he writes into the chronicles. And yes, I am sorry to say that he did talk about varying “levels” of Christianity in “noble pagans”. :(
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 04, 2009 12:40 pm

Aslan's Follower wrote:Whether you are judged by the Law of God or by your own conscience you are still going to be condemned because 'all have sinned'. Remember although we are judged by the law, no man is saved by the Law. The Law is not a way to salvation but a means of showing man his own sinfulness so that he will give up all hope of saving himself and fall on Christ. A man may be judged by his conscience but that does not mean that he can be saved by his conscience. The conscience condemns a man and shows him his need for salvation.
Excellent point and well said. :D We will still be judged. Our conscience can't save us. The Law can't save us.
Romans 3:19-20 wrote:Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Aslan's Follower wrote:And yes, I am sorry to say that he did talk about varying “levels” of Christianity in “noble pagans”. :(
I have the same problem with Lewis sometimes. The noble savage is an 18th-century invention, a la Rousseau. I'm not saying he started it but I think he popularized the concept. And let's not forget Voltaire's Candide. /:) This idea reappeared in late 19th-century missionary policy. Men like J. N. Farquhar thought Christianity "fulfilled" Hinduism and that we should build on what God has already revealed of Himself in other religions. His most well-known book is Not to Destroy but to Fulfill. /:) We have general revelation of God: nature. But divine revelation is found only in Christ and in the Bible. And whatever ideas followers of other religions have of God, they're wrong, twisted, or incomplete ... end of story. ;)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby narnian1 » Oct 04, 2009 5:36 pm

Aslan's Follower wrote:
Whether you are judged by the Law of God or by your own conscience you are still going to be condemned because 'all have sinned'. Remember although we are judged by the law, no man is saved by the Law. The Law is not a way to salvation but a means of showing man his own sinfulness so that he will give up all hope of saving himself and fall on Christ. A man may be judged by his conscience but that does not mean that he can be saved by his conscience. The conscience condemns a man and shows him his need for salvation.



Oh good point, on that. Stated well.
I'm now more confused with this part of the book, I still think Emeth entered the Real Narnia, rather than being in limbo. But how Lewis meant to translate it into our world I can't begin to guess properly. I'll just be leaving it as it is then.

Aslan's Follower wrote:
If you want to know what Lewis believed I highly recommend you read Mere Christianity or get the audio book.


Oh yes I have the book.
Great book I think. I really enjoy Lewis' books. I take them with caution of course as he himself admits to his lack of knowledge. He wasn't perfect in his writing but he did write many good things in them.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Oct 05, 2009 3:48 pm

narnian1 wrote: I'm now more confused with this part of the book, I still think Emeth entered the Real Narnia, rather than being in limbo. But how Lewis meant to translate it into our world I can't begin to guess properly. I'll just be leaving it as it is then.

It would be so much easier if Lewis were around to ask, wouldn't it? We will never know what he meant for sure. He might not have even meant it to translate. I think the Emeth went with the others further up and further in. What we need to remember is that the land within the door of the stable is not exactly like Heaven, or at least it is not like my sense of what the Bible is telling us about Heaven. Edit: disregard:Tash is allowed inside the stable as his evil self. I don't think in his fallen form Satan would be allowed in Heaven. End disregard. End edit. The dwarfs are sitting in their pretend stable. Maybe part of the land "inside" the stable is to represent part of what happens on earth. Creatures who reject that any higher being exists they can't decide if they love or hate Aslan because they can't see him. Let's say that looking into Aslan's face is like receiving the Word of God. Some people reject it right away and others receive it and it grows in them. It is sort of like the parable of the sower (Mark 4). Satan takes the seed from some (and it is logical that those that lose the seed end up being taken by him too). In others, the seed grows. That actual acceptance of the Word can happen quickly, but that does not entail instant understanding. First, a person decides to accept Christ as his /her savior (based on hearing the Word), then s/he has to act on this (changing lifestyle, learning more about Christ, getting closer to him). The journey the creatures (I'm including people in this term) go on to find Aslan further up and further in could symbolize a Christian's growth in understanding, faith, etc. Emeth saw Aslan and realized he was worthy of praise. He heard the Word, if you will. He did not question that Aslan was glorious and important. He questioned what would happen to himself because he had been serving someone else. He began to understand more as Aslan spoke to him. Everyone who was going further up and further in (except Roonwit) did not understand at first. It wasn't until they met Aslan in the Garden that they really understood what was happening. In other words, the whole thing can be seen as a metaphor for the journey to know Jesus. Emeth realized that there was a god that deserved to be worshiped and acted in such a manner as a "good" god would want. He had the wrong god until he heard the true word (in this case saw Aslan face to face). (This is similar to Saul's conversion. Saul was working against the true God until Jesus appeared to him. The name of Jesus was hateful to him as the name of Aslan was to Emeth). Emeth realized he had erred through his meeting with Aslan as Saul did through his meeting with Jesus. Emeth then accepts Aslan and starts on his journey to know him better. However, none of the journeyers have seen Aslan in his pure form until they have "died" and know they have "died." Then, Aslan changes and they are able to completely understand. Lewis doesn't write about what happened after this change: "He no longer looked to them like a lion; but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them." That could be a way of saying, "They are not for you to know because you have yet to die." We cannot see Jesus as he actually is in all of his glory until we die.
(To clarify, I think the accepting Jesus and the journey to know him better takes part on Earth and then is Heaven the end of the journey).

narnian1 wrote:
Aslan's Follower wrote:
If you want to know what Lewis believed I highly recommend you read Mere Christianity or get the audio book.


Oh yes I have the book.
Great book I think. I really enjoy Lewis' books. I take them with caution of course as he himself admits to his lack of knowledge. He wasn't perfect in his writing but he did write many good things in them.

I’ve just started rereading Mere Christianity. I really like it. And of course any work about religion / the Bible needs to be taken with caution. ;)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 05, 2009 4:14 pm

Deep stuff, Pattertwigs Pal, as usual! B-)

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:Tash is allowed inside the stable as his evil self. I don't think in his fallen form Satan would be allowed in Heaven.
Well, what are your thoughts on the following passages?

Job 1:6-7, 12, 2:1-2 wrote:Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” . . . And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. . . .Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
1 Kings 22:19-22 wrote:Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’"


Pattertwigs Pal wrote:Let's say that looking into Aslan's face is like receiving the Word of God. Some people reject it right away and others receive it and it grows in them. . . .Emeth saw Aslan and realized he was worthy of praise. He heard the Word, if you will. He did not question that Aslan was glorious and important. . . .He had the wrong god until he heard the true word (in this case saw Aslan face to face). (This is similar to Saul's conversion. Saul was working against the true God until Jesus appeared to him. The name of Jesus was hateful to him as the name of Aslan was to Emeth). Emeth realized he had erred through his meeting with Aslan as Saul did through his meeting with Jesus. Emeth then accepts Aslan and starts on his journey to know him better.
I think you've said a lot here [including what I didn't quote]. Why? Because the Word is a mirror of the soul [James 1:23-25]. We are spiritually transformed by it, if we don't forget what we look like. ;) But also because Christ is the living Word. When we look in His face, we are transformed. This is what 2 Corinthians 3:18 is all about, really the whole chapter. And this is why Lucy's face becomes beautiful when she sees Aslan in Coriakin's house. :)

I'll say more about Emeth when I finish the book. ;)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Oct 05, 2009 5:44 pm

220chrisTian wrote:Deep stuff, Pattertwigs Pal, as usual! B-)

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:Tash is allowed inside the stable as his evil self. I don't think in his fallen form Satan would be allowed in Heaven.
Well, what are your thoughts on the following passages?

Job 1:6-7, 12, 2:1-2 wrote:Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” . . . And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. . . .Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
1 Kings 22:19-22 wrote:Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’"

Oops. I forgot about that part in Job. :ymblushing: I didn't do my research very well did I? Well, I'm doing it now. I looked up that section in Job, and it referenced Revelation 12:10. I looked a few verses earlier and found:

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

Apparently Satan can still visit heaven until the end. *is heading up to correct her previous post*
I'm not sure exactly what the verses from Kings are talking about, though.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Oct 06, 2009 9:03 pm

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:Oops. I forgot about that part in Job. :ymblushing: I didn't do my research very well did I?
It's okay! We've all been there! :ymhug: And thanks for the passage in Revelation 12. :) 12:11 is one of my favorite verses in the entire book! "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Yeah, good stuff. :D

Regarding the passage in 1 Kings, you'd have to read the whole chapter to understand what's going on. King Ahab [Israel] wants to fight Syria with King Jehoshaphat [Judah]. He wants to know whether or not he should fight Syria. All the false prophets say "yes," that God will be with him. But Micaiah, the only prophet of the Lord, says "no," that God won't be with Ahab and that he'll die. And Micaiah also says he saw a vision of God sitting on his throne looking for someone to hoodwink Ahab into going to battle so he'll die [since he's a really bad king]. And a [demonic?] spirit appears before God and says he'll be a lying spirit in the false prophets' mouths. And that's what happens. Ahab believes the false prophets and is mortally wounded.

Okay, Emeth! “Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him, for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.” [The Last Battle, 156]

Notice what I put in bold. Emeth’s actions show who he really serves. Because of this, Aslan draws him to himself and when Emeth sees him he loves him. He is transformed. I think Emeth resembles Cornelius, "a devout man and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision ... an angel coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. ... Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God." Then the angel tells him to send for Peter who "tell thee what thou oughtest to do." -- Acts 10:2-6

Cornelius did what was right. He was faithful and just. His deeds are accepted with God so that He shows Cornelius the true way: salvation in Jesus Christ. His good deeds weren't enough. He still had to hear the message of salvation in Christ from Peter. But I think his good works opened the door to God's gracious offer. The same is true with Emeth. Aslan saw that he did what was right, but for the wrong god [sort of like Paul]. So he rewarded Emeth for his good deeds by revealing himself. Emeth still had to see Aslan face to face, with the possibility of accepting or rejecting him. There was still only one way: Aslan. Note that once Emeth saw Aslan and bowed down to him as the one true god, he gave up on Tash! “It is I who reward him” – with true salvation. Good deeds can’t save but God can show mercy and point us in the right direction. :)

Also consider this passage: "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me, and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father and I will love him and wll manifest myself to him. . . .If a man love me, he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." -- John 14:21, 23 :)
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