Emeth in Aslan's Country

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Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Sep 13, 2009 1:13 pm

It's a shame there aren't more topics in this section, so I decided to revive one of the old topics. (No, I was not the one who originally started this discussion)

So...
We have a Calormen who has, in his own words, "The servant of Tash", and has been "seeking Tash all [his] days". And yet, Aslan calls him "beloved" and tells him that "all the service [Emeth] hath done to Tash, I account as service done to me."

What does this mean? Lewis was a great Christian apologist (a defender and explainer of the faith), wrote numerous books on Christianity and the Bible, and had many symbolic scenes scattered throughout the Chronicles of Narnia. Why then this strange encounter?

Answers, additions and subractions welcome. ;)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby narnian1 » Sep 13, 2009 1:43 pm

http://www.narniaweb.com/2009/05/episode-52-the-situation-of-emeth/

great question, tough one as well. The link on top is for the narniaweb podcast which speaks about this as well. I post it for those who might not have listened to it yet.

My thoughts:

Emeth is a Calormen, he grew up only with his customs and the beliefs of his people. No one, I expect, had ever told him the truth about Aslan. Nevertheless he was still a good hearted man man who lived his life honestly.

Meanwhile we have Shift, a narnian, doing many things in the name of Aslan, though Aslan had never appeared to him.


The Bible:
Yes, Jesus is the only way to God, the bible teaches. It is the church's ministry to preach the Word to others. Anyone who believes will be saved, but those who refuse would be condemned. However, unless I am mistaken, it also mentions that those who've died NEVER having heard the gospel- these will be judged by their conscience.


Back to Narnia:
Emeth never learned the true Aslan as it wasn't "preached" to him. Therefore though he died out of him, his conscience testified well of him and so Aslan received him. Meanwhile Shift, who knew of the real Aslan, as all narnians are told the history, chose to walk his own way and did much wrong. When he did then, he was handed over to Tash.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Sep 13, 2009 2:53 pm

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:It's a shame there aren't more topics in this section,

Yes, it is. I’ve PMed one of the mods about an idea I have for this section, and I’m waiting to hear back. It definitely needs more topics. :)

About Emeth: This part has always bothered me about the LB. I’m still not sure where I stand on it, but here are some things I have heard/read on the topic.
1. Emerth says, “Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die …” In a book I read (I think it was some kind of a guide to Narnia), it stated that Emerth decided to serve Aslan rather than Tash and recognized him as the one he should serve. He realizes his error.
2.
In A Family Guide to Biblical Truths in C. S. Lewis’s The Chronicles of Narnia, Christin Ditchfield wrote: Without realizing it, Emeth has been seek and serving Aslan all of his life. (“Emeth” is a Hebrew word for “faithful” or “true.”) Acts 10:35 tells us that God “accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.” Emeth shares the passion of the psalmist who said, “I am a stranger to my brothers … for zeal for your house consumes me” (Psalm 69;8-9). “Your face, LORD, I will seek” (Psalm 27:8). “I seek you with all my heart” (Psalm 119:10). God always responds to those who earnestly desire the truth. (See the story of Ethiopian in Acts 8:26-39). … Can That Be Right? Some readers have wondered if Emeth is C.S. Lewis’s way of saying that all religions lead to the one true God and that anyone who is sincere in their beliefs will find their way to Heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth. (Note how Aslan responded to Emeth’s question as to whether he and Tash were one and the same after all.) We know that C.S. Lewis believed that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way that anyone can be saved. (See John 14:6.) The character of Emeth illustrates the truth of Jeremiah 29:13: “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” God is so merciful – He reveals Himself to those who truly seek Him, even if they are coming at it from the wrong direction. That was certainly Lewis’s experience when he met God after thirty years as an atheist.(194-195)

3. Of course, there is also the possibility this is one of the ways that Narnia does not correlate exactly to our world.

narnian1, good idea to link to the podcast. I haven't listened to it yet but I will one of these days when I am sure I'll have enough time. :)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Aslan's Follower » Sep 15, 2009 3:02 am

I wondered how long it would be before this subject was reborn. ;)
At the moment I am not sure which theory is the most fitting, but when I get to heaven I am definitely going to ask Lewis about it. Maybe he will say "I was wrong there" or maybe, "You got totally the wrong impression of what I meant." :-\
I would encourage everyone to listen to the podcast. There are some deep minds on the counsel. ;)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Sep 15, 2009 1:19 pm

narnian1 said
The Bible:
Yes, Jesus is the only way to God, the bible teaches. It is the church's ministry to preach the Word to others. Anyone who believes will be saved, but those who refuse would be condemned. However, unless I am mistaken, it also mentions that those who've died NEVER having heard the gospel- these will be judged by their conscience.


I don't really want you to think that I'm mad at you, so let me say this as respectfully as possible. I have a real problem with being told that "good people" will go to Heaven. Paul says in Romans 3:23-24
... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;


I always thought that the encounter (between Emeth and Aslan) was more symbolic of a non-believer finding Jesus in life. I mean, Narnia does have a lot of significant Christian symbolism in it, but Lewis was writing a story, not an allegory (e.g. Pilgrim's Progress). The story for LB wouldn't work if Emeth met Aslan before entering the stable.

And thanks for the podcast link! I still have to figure out how to do that... :ymblushing:
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby narnian1 » Sep 15, 2009 2:32 pm

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:I don't really want you to think that I'm mad at you, so let me say this as respectfully as possible. I have a real problem with being told that "good people" will go to Heaven.


it's ok, but I notice I never said only "good people" will get into heaven,
for it's true, "there is no one good", as you quoted we all have sinned and therefore fall short. If I led you to believe I said otherwise, I'm sorry- 'twas not my intention.

But there are people who still haven't heard the gospel, yet may be trying to live the best way possible, their human conscience speaking within them, therefore there conscience is a law unto them. And by that they will be judged.
(They're living honest lives, not perfect, mind you)

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:I always thought that the encounter (between Emeth and Aslan) was more symbolic of a non-believer finding Jesus in life. I mean, Narnia does have a lot of significant Christian symbolism in it, but Lewis was writing a story, not an allegory (e.g. Pilgrim's Progress). The story for LB wouldn't work if Emeth met Aslan before entering the stable.



Not quite sure I'm understanding this part.

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:And thanks for the podcast link! I still have to figure out how to do that... :ymblushing:


what, how to play it?
just click on the red triangle, (play button).
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Sep 18, 2009 3:03 pm

I just listened to the podcast. The part about Emeth no longer bothers me. :D If you have not listened to the podcast and don’t want it to be spoiled, I would suggest skipping the rest of my post. I liked Rilian’s theory that when people do good things they are glorifying God whether they know it or not and when they do evil they are doing what the devil would want. The comparison to the church persecuting others makes a lot of sense. (If I make any errors in my summarizing feel free to correctly.) My opinion on Rilian’s theory starts here. In Narnia / on Earth all creatures were created by “God,” so any good they do would be a credit to the creator and reflecting his goodness. Since the Creator is good and only good (he’s prefect after all), anything the creatures do that is wrong cannot reflect on him. They show the influence of evil on the creatures. I don’t think I’m explaining this very well. I hate it when my thoughts get stuck in my head and won’t come out. Also, Peter (the Biblical one) demonstrates this general idea. One minute he is saying that Jesus is the Messiah and Jesus is blessing him and telling him that he will be the rock on which the church is built. The next minute Peter says about Jesus’ being killed, “God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.” Then Jesus says to him, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.” Within seven verses, Peter has gone from being compared to a useful rock to being compared to a stumbling block. When he does what is right, he is reflecting what the Father in Heaven revealed to him but when he is doing what is wrong he is called Satan and is reflecting human things instead of divine things. (Matthew 16:16-23)

I am a little confused about what Dr. Ransom said about Emeth not going up to the hill. Right after Emeth finishes his story, Puzzle comes up and tells his story. Then the book states: “Then they all went forward.” Wouldn’t the “all” include Emeth?
Someone mentioned that Emeth didn’t die and neither did the creatures who entered through the stable door. Emeth didn’t die, but other creatures (Roonwit for example) did die and came through the door.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dr Elwin Ransom » Sep 21, 2009 1:15 pm

Just for reference, here’s this thread’s immediate predecessor in Old NarniaWeb: Has this ever bugged you?. Dernhelm, you’re the first to re-raise the topic in New NarniaWeb!

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:I am a little confused about what Dr. Ransom said about Emeth not going up to the hill. Right after Emeth finishes his story, Puzzle comes up and tells his story. Then the book states: “Then they all went forward.” Wouldn’t the “all” include Emeth?

No, the story sort of abruptly moves on from Emeth, and it doesn’t mention him going along with the crowd “further up and further in.” One would think that if Emeth did go along, he would have been saying something, and Lewis would have explored his thoughts too. Rather, Emeth is left kind of forlorn, but optimistic, still seeking the Lion who had appeared to him.


Back in May this year, inspired by the podcast discussion with Rilian, I wrote a complete column with the most comprehensive treatment of the subject I could think of: Exploring ‘The Last Battle’s’ Emeth Element. I don’t think I ever posted it completely on NarniaWeb, yet here it is here, for your consideration. It also includes, and expands upon, a lot of the podcast discussion.

I wrote:Exploring ‘The Last Battle’s’ Emeth Element

Every once in a while I catch myself having oddball thoughts about either The Chronicles of Narnia or their author, C.S. Lewis. Such notions as these come not from any logical basis, but a rather reflexive attitude toward something like the Chronicles or Lewis’s other works, including Mere Christianity and The Great Divorce, that have proven to be so awesome yet so popular:

How could anything be so awesome and yet so popular at the same time? There must be Something Wrong with it. Something about Narnia or Lewis’s nonfiction is actually un-Biblical and that’s why people like it so much. After all, Biblical things aren’t supposed to be popular.

I think that subconscious suspicion may be behind how many people react to a certain controversial portion of Lewis’s last Chronicle of Narnia, The Last Battle. This has often come up in the Narnia and Christianity section of the NarniaWeb forum (where I’m a moderator). People worry about it: Lewis’s portrayal of a young and “pagan” Calormene man who somehow finds his way into Aslan’s (the Chronicles’ Christ-figure’s) country and the heavenly New Narnia.

Just this weekend, “Rilian” (NarniaWeb’s “podcasting prince”) and I recorded an hour-long session for the site in which we discussed what I’ve come to call The Emeth Element. It was an excellent interchange; I learned a lot, and I look forward to listeners’ responses!

We began with reading excerpts from The Last Battle itself, in which the character Emeth, a young man who had earlier been showed as being fully devoted to the false god — though very real and evil entity — Tash. Calling the bluff of a deception coordinated by Narnia’s false prophet Shift, and the evil Calormene, Rishda Tarkaan, Emeth enters the mysterious Stable, slays an enemy, and finds himself not in a small dirty wooden hut, but a wondrous paradise that (somehow) Aslan has set up and which can be entered by passing through the Stable door.

Later, Emeth tells other humans — the Seven Friends of Narnia — how he encountered Aslan.

“Then I fell at [Aslan’s] feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, ‘Son, thou art welcome.’ But I said, ‘Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash.’ He answered, ‘Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?’ I said, ‘Lord, thou knowest how much I understand.’ But I said also (for the truth constrained me), ‘Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.’ ‘Beloved,’ said the Glorious One, ‘unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.’

“Then he breathed upon me and took away the trembling from my limbs and caused me to stand upon my feet. And after that, he said not much, but that we should meet again, and I must go further up and further in. Then he turned him about in a storm and flurry of gold and was gone suddenly.”



Is universalism underlying?

For many people — including myself in the past — this jumps out. How could a non-Narnian, a follower of a false religion, find himself in Heaven and accepted by Aslan? It seems readers can have, and have had, three different reactions in response to this:

- C.S. Lewis wasn’t all that orthodox and Biblical, and this is one of those portions of his writings that shows we ought not trust him to uphold Scriptural truth. Throw them out.

- The author, who was not a trained theologian, messed up in this instance. We ought to read the Chronicles with discernment and look past the portions that might be in error.

- Lewis in this portion of the story did not promote Universalism, and is in fact trying to say something else that doesn’t specifically relate to salvation or even Emeth’s “faith.”

Some people take the first option — among them some very poorly designed and argued websites that yell about Lewis not having a specific prayed-the-prayer “salvation experience” or the resemblance of Mr. Tumnus to imagined physical features of the Devil. But they number very few, and are certainly — and rightfully — in Christendom’s minority today.

And as for the second option, yes, Lewis might have been error, though not because of belief in Universalism (as I’ll explain below). NarniaWeb member The Black Glove pointed out in a September post that some questionable medieval theology did inform Lewis’s worldview. Apparently that mindset includes the concept of a “noble pagan” who isn't so terrible, so he doesn't necessarily go to Hell, but not to Heaven either — such as in Dante’s Divine Comedy, which shows Greek philosophers such as Plato and Socrates in some kind of in-between place. If Lewis meant that, we can politely disagree, and enjoy the rest of the story.

Yet I take the third option for the Emeth Element listed above — Lewis was not in error here.

Yes, it’s very true that Lewis was not a trained theologian, and he would be have been the first to say so (it’s safe to assume that by now he is surely a trained theologian!). For example, in The Problem of Pain, Lewis not only misunderstood the concept of “total depravity,” but made up a creation story for our world, trying to guess how “early man” would have become aware of God yet somehow sinned and paying no attention to the Garden of Eden story. (Lewis has more respect for the Creation account in The Space Trilogy than he did in this “nonfiction”!) And one might venture to say that even the story of Aslan sacrificing himself to save Edmund in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe must be carefully read, for the sacrifice is almost to appease the Witch’s “wrath”, not the wrath of the Narnian Emperor-over-the-Sea (God).

Yet overall Lewis imbued the Narnia stories with such a sense of the “awful yet beautiful” nature of Christ, the magic and wonder of life in Him and the redemption He gives us, that other errors are minor and not sufficient to ignore the Chronicles, or even this part of the story.

Also, we need not count Universalism among those errors — the idea that God will save all people, or most people, regardless of whether they believed in Christ in this world. Lewis’s rejection of this idea can be clearly seen just from the rest of The Last Battle itself. Before Aslan has ended the first Narnia and forever closed the Stable door on a world that is now dark and cold, a horde of creatures comes running to the door, in a picture of the Judgment Seat of Christ. Two different reactions, fear and love, take place in the good creatures. But others look at him with loathing, then turn aside into darkness. The narrator explains their fate is unknown. Yet one can safely surmise that the evil false god Tash, Rishda, Ginger the cat, Shift the Ape and thousands of other creatures clearly went to Some Other Place.

In The Great Divorce, another work of fiction, Lewis may have been less certain about the fate of those who have never heard of Jesus, and so translated his uncertainties into the medium of fiction. But we can see that he did not buy into Universalism. In an imagined conversation with George MacDonald in The Great Divorce, Lewis asks the “writer” if he believes all people will be saved; and at least this fictitious MacDonald answers no, not at all. And throughout the story, Lewis, upholds the idea of Hell — though Lewis casts it metaphorically as a completely small, insignificant, dull sort of place that more resembles a ghetto than a burning lake of fire.

In his nonfiction works, too, Lewis argues against the idea that all people — or most people, without Christ — will be saved. Even in the sometimes-problematic Problem of Pain, he specifically upholds the doctrine of Hell and God’s punishment for rebellious sinners.

[Hell] has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord’s own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason,” Lewis wrote. “If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it.”


Further up and further in

So if Lewis isn’t making a statement about how supposedly nonbelievers in Aslan can get into Heaven anyway, what is he talking about? And how are we to reconcile the seemingly clear idea that the “pagan” Emeth, who has served a false god all his life, winds up in “Heaven”?

In our podcast, Rilian related something I had not thought of before: that Aslan is not talking nearly as much about whether Emeth is “saved” as he is the concept of using Emeth’s good deeds, even if performed in the name of a false god, for the Lion’s glory. Thus, anything evil done in Aslan’s name is “credited” to Tash, and anything good done in the evil Tash’s name is credited to Aslan. And Aslan works all things for good, similar to Christ (Romans 8: 38-39). He receives glory in all things — even good deeds practiced by pagans because of common grace (Matthew 5:45).

Meanwhile, I reiterated that just as salvation works differently for Narnians — at first, Edmund didn’t even know Aslan died for him, and Aslan did not die to save other creatures — Heaven works differently. Emeth has not quite reached Heaven; rather, he is in a limbo state, a sort of “reverse purgatory” in which he is on the way to knowing Aslan, but not quite there yet.

Later, in the joyous stampede of humans and animals alike “further up and further in,” Emeth is still not there — at least not yet. In his “limbo state” nearer the Stable Door, the young man is still “searching.”

Someday we can ask Lewis himself what he meant with the whole Emeth element. In the story, Lewis doesn’t tell us what became of him. His story ends a bit quickly, and like with the agnostic, humanistic Dwarves and the evil Rishda Tarkaan whom Tash himself abducts and then disappears, readers are left to wonder. Instead we focus on Aslan, who encourages his people to go “further up and further in.”

But I have my guess: my interpretation is that Aslan will continue to work with the noble Calormene, and show him further truths that will lead to his final “salvation” and joyous journey into Aslan’s Country, further up and further in!
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby narnian1 » Sep 21, 2009 4:20 pm

Dr Elwin Ransom wrote:Just for reference, here’s this thread’s immediate predecessor in Old NarniaWeb: Has this ever bugged you?. Dernhelm, you’re the first to re-raise the topic in New NarniaWeb!

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:I am a little confused about what Dr. Ransom said about Emeth not going up to the hill. Right after Emeth finishes his story, Puzzle comes up and tells his story. Then the book states: “Then they all went forward.” Wouldn’t the “all” include Emeth?

No, the story sort of abruptly moves on from Emeth, and it doesn’t mention him going along with the crowd “further up and further in.” One would think that if Emeth did go along, he would have been saying something, and Lewis would have explored his thoughts too. Rather, Emeth is left kind of forlorn, but optimistic, still seeking the Lion who had appeared to him.


I'm with Pattertwigs Pal,
I think Emeth was included in the "all" that went forward.
Lewis abruptly stops talking about Emeth because that wasn't the most important part, he had more to say yet. He didn't mention every single person that went "further up and further in". In fact, we only see the Narnians doing this, yet eventually they reach a section in which the Pevensie parents are there, in the english section.

I still hold that Emeth also went up,
I don't think Lewis did this limbo state for him, after all he did state that Aslan told Emeth to "go further up and further in" after having breathed strength over him.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby daughter of the King » Sep 22, 2009 6:25 pm

Several good points have been made, however, my own thoughts are none of the above. I think Emeth truly did believe in Aslan, thought he did not know him by name. Emeth did not truly serve Tash. As Aslan says: "....Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me..." I don't think Aslan is saying that works will get Emeth into heaven. To quote from the ultimate authority: "Faith without works is dead." (sorry, I don't remember the reference.) I think Aslan is not praising Emeth for his works, but for the faith that caused the works. If he had no faith, he would not have been brought into the stable.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Sep 23, 2009 11:22 am

daughter of the King wrote:As Aslan says: "....Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me..." I don't think Aslan is saying that works will get Emeth into heaven. To quote from the ultimate authority: "Faith without works is dead." (sorry, I don't remember the reference.) I think Aslan is not praising Emeth for his works, but for the faith that caused the works. If he had no faith, he would not have been brought into the stable.
Interesting idea! The reference is James 2:20. And I think you're right. If Emeth hadn't had faith, he wouldn't have done what he did. ;)

Of all the images to use at the end of LB, why a stable? Is this the entrance to Aslan's Country? :-\ [I haven't read LB in awhile. :ymblushing:] Basically, I'm wondering about a subtle reference/allusion to the birth of Christ. Jesus was born in a stable. At that moment, the Life that gives eternal Life entered the world. And what is heaven? Eternal Life that never ends... ;)
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Sep 23, 2009 5:15 pm

The stable was a sort of entrance to Aslan's country. Although not all who can through the door ended up there. All the creatures from earth were driven through the door when the world ended. They looked into Aslan's face and either stay in the world or disappear into his shadow. The creatures / people who entered before Aslan ended the world either saw the world or didn't. Emeth did. The dwarfs did not and are as far as we know still sitting there in their pretend stable. Shift and Rishda were claimed by Tash. Lucy actually says, "In our world too, a Stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world." The stable was Puzzles home while he was dressed up as Aslan. I'm guessing that Aslan made it a way into his country after Jill removed Puzzle. The parts closest to the door seem to be open to anyone, since Tash and the dwarfs were on the Aslan's country side of the door.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Sep 24, 2009 4:33 pm

Pattertwigs Pal: thanks for the explanation. :)

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:The stable was a sort of entrance to Aslan's country. Although not all who can through the door ended up there. All the creatures from earth were driven through the door when the world ended. They looked into Aslan's face and either stay in the world or disappear into his shadow.
Interesting! You know what I first thought of when I read this? Christ's judgment of the nations:
Matthew 25:31-33 wrote:When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


And what about these passages?
Psalm 24:7-10 wrote:Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Psalm 118:19-20 wrote:Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

Isaiah 26:2 wrote:Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.

Matthew 25:1-2 wrote:Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Luke 13:23-27 wrote:Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.


Although not all who can through the door ended up there. All the creatures from earth were driven through the door when the world ended.
I think there's a lot of spiritual significance in this image of an open door. But the scene in LB isn't quite the same as the biblical parallels. For in the Bible, only the righteous go through the open door. :) For those who aren't saved, God shuts the door in their face. :(
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby Dernhelm_of_Rohan » Sep 25, 2009 8:36 am

Let me just start by saying sorry I haven't responded in so long... my schoolwork is overwhelming. That's my only excuse.

narnian1 wrote:it's ok, but I notice I never said only "good people" will get into heaven,
for it's true, "there is no one good", as you quoted we all have sinned and therefore fall short. If I led you to believe I said otherwise, I'm sorry- 'twas not my intention.


Sorry for misreading you.

But there are people who still haven't heard the gospel, yet may be trying to live the best way possible, their human conscience speaking within them, therefore there conscience is a law unto them. And by that they will be judged.
(They're living honest lives, not perfect, mind you)


I'll leave that judgement to God. Thank goodness I am not He!

Not quite sure I'm understanding this part.


Lewis was writing a story, above all else. A beautiful story with some allegorical truth to it (no good story doesn't have some element of allegory), but he was still writing a fictional story, not retelling the Bible. Emeth may have been more symbolic of a person finding Jesus in life.

what, how to play it?
just click on the red triangle, (play button).


No, I got that part! :ymsmug: I meant how to insert links.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby narnian1 » Sep 25, 2009 10:29 am

Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:Let me just start by saying sorry I haven't responded in so long... my schoolwork is overwhelming. That's my only excuse.

But there are people who still haven't heard the gospel, yet may be trying to live the best way possible, their human conscience speaking within them, therefore there conscience is a law unto them. And by that they will be judged.
(They're living honest lives, not perfect, mind you)


I'll leave that judgement to God. Thank goodness I am not He!



same here, you are correct, as I too leave that judgement to him,
I just think that a verse in the bible says that. if so, those weren't my words.
if not in there, than scrap it. ;)


Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:
Not quite sure I'm understanding this part.


Lewis was writing a story, above all else. A beautiful story with some allegorical truth to it (no good story doesn't have some element of allegory), but he was still writing a fictional story, not retelling the Bible. Emeth may have been more symbolic of a person finding Jesus in life.




Ah! I think I got you now.
It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable? Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others.
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Re: Emeth in Aslan's Country

Postby 220chrisTian » Sep 25, 2009 11:49 am

narnian1 wrote:
Dernhelm_of_Rohan wrote:
But there are people who still haven't heard the gospel, yet may be trying to live the best way possible, their human conscience speaking within them, therefore there conscience is a law unto them. And by that they will be judged. (They're living honest lives, not perfect, mind you)
I'll leave that judgement to God. Thank goodness I am not He!
same here, you are correct, as I too leave that judgement to him, i just think that a verse in the bible says that. if so, those weren't my words. if not in there, than scrap it. ;)


narnian1: I assume you're referring to the following passage [NKJV].
Romans 2:12-16 wrote:For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The Gentiles who don't have the law will be judged without it. They'll be judged by their conscience, which is a law to them. But that isn't salvation, is it? ;)

And regarding leaving judgment to God ... Abraham asked God, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" [Gen 18:25, KJV] ;) Yes, we leave the judgment of men and women's souls to God. He is always righteous and always merciful. :)
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