The White Witch Issue

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The White Witch Issue

Postby OakDryad71 » Sep 08, 2010 12:48 pm

Can anyone tell me why these producers keep insisting on putting the White Witch into places where she doesnt belong? She wasn't supposed to be in the PC movie, but there she materialized. Now in VDT trailer, there she is again!

The entire purpose for her being destroyed in LWW was to identiry Lucifer being deafeted by the Cross. Though evil pokes it's head up thorughout the Chronicles, The WW in LWW symbolized the ultimate image of evil...Satan... and his grip over human destiny. Likewise, once that figure was defeated, there would be no more reason at all for the White Witch to even appear in Dawn Treader or the Silver Chair.

And if They do the same to Dawn Treader (which it appears they already have) then what is the point? What is truth if it is not absolute? It is luke warm to be spit out. I hear that this time around for Dawn Treader they even had a conference with theological approval during a viewing of clips from the movie (see ChristianityToday.com for details on the conference).

If they distort the most important conversation in all of the Chronicles, the one which appears at the end of the VDT book between Aslan and Lucy, then we know future productions are a waste of time to even take notice.

Do any of these distortions bother anyone else? Does anyone care about what Lewis was trying to say in this lost world? Or are we all blinded beyond belief?
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby DiGoRyKiRkE » Sep 08, 2010 3:35 pm

Well, here's the way I see them.

Although I can see your point, and can definitely relate with your concern, I'm not so concerned about this feature, and here are some reasons why.

Although I agree with you that The White Witch's defeat is an important part of the book series, I don't think it's as important as you make it out to be. C.S. Lewis himself says in Prince Caspian "Whoever heard of a witch who really dies. . . you can always get them back." Now the reason that the added scene in PC didn't bother me as much as some other additions *coughPeterAngstcoughcoughwheezeSuspianwheeze* is because it fulfills that part of the book. Also. . . it isn't as if the White Witch actually came back. . . she only had the opportunity to do so if Peter would have yielded to temptation. The same is true for our Christian life.

Christ's death on the cross may have defeated Satan (or at least will defeat him at a future date) but it didn't "destroy" him as you are suggesting. Satan is alive and well. A "roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" according to 2 Peter.

The idea that Satan (or the WW) is completely destroyed doesn't really theologically fit with the series, or with theology. If Satan/WW is evil incarnate, and evil still exists in Narnia, then logically. . . Satan/WW still exists.

I wouldn't be too upset with her appearance in VODT. It's going to happen exactly as you're thinking it's going to happen. She's going to appear as a dream on the island of darkness. Just like she appeared exactlly where we thought she was going to be in PC. No surprises.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Narnia #1 Fan » Sep 09, 2010 5:57 pm

Yes this bothers me. I do not know why they keep putting the White Witch in the movies. I see what you are getting at with the message that the production seems to be sending. The White Witch does in fact represent Satan and I think also that they shouldn't have put that figure in PC, VDT, and I hope that they do not continue to do this. C. S. Lewis had particular messages to get out and reach the world when he wrote the books and I do not like it when Hollywood or anyone else tries to taint them.

I wonder if there is a way to write to the producers and tell them what we think.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby OakDryad71 » Sep 09, 2010 9:13 pm

Well Dig, I don't know if it fullfills any part of the Chronicles, but I do see you statement.
Of course Satan will never "die" until the final judgement. And that is up to the Almighty and His discernment. However, in PC, WW came back in the movie as a recognizable actress, but not in the book, of course.

I believe that the reason in the book that she wasnt completely conjured up was because of the fact that even though Satan is the "god of the air" and dwells in our present realm, he has no power to come back and take us captive in the "Real". That was dismissed on the rock table in LWW. However he does have influence on our mortal conscience choice.

Whether we choose his course or not is up to us. I disagree that it does not fit the series to an extent. The icon of the WW is an eminent value to Lewis' paramount ficture of evil. As I have said in other posts, there are plenty of other evils about in Narnia. But the WW has the icon of Satan himself. He even wrote LWW for his real-life Lucy relative in hopes she would adhire to this affect.

Narnia fan...I know your angst. And I agree with you.
In LWW Satan killed Christ but only in the mortal sense. Too bad the battle was too drawn out and cut through that part so horraciously. Anyhow. It just seems they are selling Tilda for bate..dont get me wrong...shee is a fine actress. But really, do we need to corrupt a story out of popularity?

Evil is evil. And it carries on through the book. Lewis changed character hands of evil to identify with our own variations of struggle. LWW was the cornerstone of his idea of Satan, and one should probably respect that. I do, anyway. I think he had a grasp on Satan's continual effect on mankind. But LWW was representative of the defeat of the cross in my book. Just sayin'.

Anyways, one should not prolong the icon of evil throughout the chronicles if the master of such was specifically defeated in one book for a very important reason.

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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Warrior 4 Jesus » Sep 10, 2010 1:13 am

It's too simplistic to compare the White Witch with Satan. She's powerful but maybe on the same level as a lesser demon.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 10, 2010 2:26 am

I don't know what the fuss is about. The Dark Island is where nightmares - not dreams- come true. Something involving the White Witch would feasibly be a nightmare for someone like Edmund. What would Caspian's nightmares be like? What would anyone's nightmares be like?

And what sort of dreams do people have that they want to come true? Can't even good dreams end up being a nightmare, as what was nice, pleasant and satisfying turns out to be anything but? And yes, it can be hard to escape a nightmarish existence. Just ask Lord Rhoop. I can't wait to see his performance in the story.

There is plenty of room for Christian messages in this particular bit. Because it is Christ who helps us resolve and endure the nightmares of our existence, minimising them, even banishing them, as in this particular bit of VDT.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Sep 11, 2010 3:23 pm

OakDryad71 wrote:Can anyone tell me why these producers keep insisting on putting the White Witch into places where she doesnt belong? She wasn't supposed to be in the PC movie, but there she materialized. Now in VDT trailer, there she is again!
I've given up trying to explain why "the powers that be" do anything they do. 8-|

I'm very annoyed at the witch's appearance - in PC and VDT. In the book we are not told if the statement the "witches never die" is true or not. It doesn't get that far, which is probably what bothers me more than the witch's appearance - that Caspian did not stop it from happening and Peter was no better. The book clearly shows that Caspian would never ever call upon the witch or let others do it. I will probably be alright with it in VDT as long as Edmund is not tempted by her offer. If he if considers listening to her for a second. X(

Until joining this forum, I had never seen the possible connection between the witch and Satan. :ymblushing: I think that is giving the witch a bit too much power. I would think she is a little more like the people who arranged for Jesus's death rather than Satan. I always considered Tash the Narnian counterpart of Satan.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Lady Galadriel » Sep 11, 2010 4:11 pm

Fascinating. I always thought of the White Witch as "the Devil". She does do a lot of things related with Satan.

I just thought I'd like to add this:

It's interesting how C.S. Lewis did not intend Aslan himself to be an allegorical figure of Christ (see this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=891 ) Rather,
C.S. Lewis wrote: In reality however he is an invention giving and imaginary answer to the question "What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?"

- The letters of C.S. Lewis, paragraph 6, page 283.

(I took the following quote from the first post in the referenced thread and shortened it. Hope nobody minds.)

Anyways, I think C.S. Lewis probably thought the same way of the White Witch. :)

I also find the White Witch's continuous appearances in the movies disturbing, even if I can see the reasoning for them. When she was defeated in LWW, one who has read the books would think that's the last time they'd see her until MN.

It seems odd that all the way in VDT, some time away from LWW, Edmund could actually be tempted by her telling him she can make him a king.

- If it is a nightmare, then my thought is, Edmund still has nightmares about the WW???
- If he is actually being tempted by her, then I have a lot of problems with it. He knows that she is evil and that Aslan saved him from her before.

It may play out in the movie to be very well handled, but we'll just have to see. :|
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby daughter of the King » Sep 11, 2010 4:59 pm

Pattertwigs Pal wrote:Until joining this forum, I had never seen the possible connection between the witch and Satan. :ymblushing: I think that is giving the witch a bit too much power.

While I have heard the White Witch/Satan comparison before, I agree with you, PP. I think that comparing the Witch to Satan is giving her too much power. However, I also agree that she really needs to stop appearing in these films. Adaptation issues aside, we've been through this plot line before. It's also annoying because now only HHB and LB will not have at least one witch scene.

I liked the Sorcery and Sudden Vengeance scene in the movie because Peter finally stopped being annoying (although it didn't redeem his character enough for me to like him) and Edmund defeated the Witch. Edmund was not going to listen to her again. If she tempts him on (in?) Dark Island (and we know the movie is about temptation), then it is a regression of Edmund's character. But I've said all that before. Maybe I should stop repeating myself.

Lady Galadriel wrote:If it is a nightmare, then my thought is, Edmund still has nightmares about the WW???

I've been thinking about this, and if it's just a nightmare that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a recent nightmare. It could be a very old nightmare that he had soon after the battle or something like that.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Princess Anna » Sep 11, 2010 11:15 pm

Good thoughts and questions, all!
Now, you don't have to agree with me... but here are a few things to think about:

Lady Galadriel wrote:- If it is a nightmare, then my thought is, Edmund still has nightmares about the WW???
- If he is actually being tempted by her, then I have a lot of problems with it. He knows that she is evil and that Aslan saved him from her before.

1) He very well might, one never knows.
I don't know about you all, and your life experiences. But there are things in my past... from childhood (over ten years ago), that still effect my life. Daily. Here, I am almost twenty-seven... yet things my fourth grade teacher said to me still taint how I view myself. (it wasn't the best experience) Still have a profound impact on my life.

I'm an adult now, and childhood experiences still hold weight. Edmund is still a child. (if going by book standards, anyway) He's, what... around twelve or thirteen? A mere two or three years have gone by since his time with the witch, and his subsequent rescue by Aslan. I think it'd be way more realistic if he WAS still bothered by memories of her and his time with her. (vs if he acted as if it never happened) Think about it, guys... this was a life-changing event for this young boy. Turned what he thought he knew upside down, and made him a better person. (in the long run. though I'm sure he felt awful for a long time)

2) Don't we still fall for the Devil's lies, even though we know he's evil? ;)
I don't know about you, but I still deal with the same lessons over and over. None of us will be perfect til Heaven... we'll all slip and stumble along the way. (sometimes losing more ground than we gain. The old "two steps forward, three steps back" thing) That's why we need(ed) Jesus.

As for the topic of the White Witch being in the trailer:
1) As I stated above, it's very feasable that memories and dreams of that time of his life would still haunt Ed. So it doesn't bother me, depending on how it's done. To be honest, I loved the part in PC when he was able to protect all, because he alone knew what she could do to a person. (well, other than Aslan. but you know what I meant)

2) I refuse to let myself (a natural worrywart), get too nervous about, or pass judgement on it... until I see the film. Doing it before then, just wastes a lot of my time and thought, that could be put towards other things. (like enjoying that it's being made at all. or getting to work on my own book series) Speculation is good, but I don't want to take it too far.

3) Sometimes things that are in trailers never turn up in a film. Who knows what they have planned? I prefer to be realistically optimistic. I can't wait til December, to be honest! :D
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby AnnasStar2010 » Sep 13, 2010 3:27 pm

waggawerewolf27, I like your idea about the island. After all if Edmund's worst nightmare would probably be about the White Witch. If this is the way that Tilda appears in the movies I'm fine with that.
However, should Edmund be tempted by the White Witch again I believe that would totally throw off his Character. He has already seen the evil of the White Witch first hand and he wouldn't be tricked into thinking that what she was saying was at all true.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Bookwyrm » Sep 16, 2010 8:49 pm

I don't consider the WW to be a Satan-figure. More along the lines of Sauron from LotR, incredibly powerful and evil, but still ultimately only a minion of the true devil. I don't think that Tash is meant to be Satan either.

I thought the Sorcery & Sudden Vengeance scene was effective in the movie. It doesn't terribly bother me, even as a purist. Still the fact remains that they have assumed the hag was telling the truth about being able to get witches back. We're never given any evidence to back that up in the books.

I do have a problem with them shoehorning Jadis into VDT though. There is absolutely no need for her presence there. They could just as easily have come up with something else for Edmund to have nightmares about, his father dying in the war or bombing killing his mother. Instead they've made a very cynical decision to bring Tilda Swinton back and plaster her all over the promotions to lure people into the movie. It's less of an artistic decision and more about trying to trick people into viewing the movie. I think it's dishonest and says a lot about Walden and Fox.
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Ithilwen » Sep 17, 2010 12:34 am

I believe Jadis is the Satan figure of the series. Everything in LWW showed it as a parallel to that. Either you are on Aslan's side (God's side), or you are on Jadis's side (Satan's side).
It makes sense for the White Witch to come back -- especially when you consider she's coming back as a spirit -- so it's not like Aslan's power "didn't work" when he killed her. She is dead, even when you see her in the movies after LWW.
I always saw Aslan's killing Jadis as representing him winning in the fight over Edmund's soul, just as Jesus Christ won the battle for our souls when he died on the cross. Satan was defeated that day. (Not that I believe that everyone goes to heaven automatically because Jesus died for them. I still believe we have to accept it.)
And even though Satan was defeated that day, Satan is still around today trying to deceive people. Likewise, even though Jadis was defeated that day, she is still around trying to deceive people -- only this time as a spirit.
When you think about it, it is accurate to the book, too, in a way. Even though Jadis didn't appear in the parts in the books that she is appearing in the movies, the hag in the book PC did say, "Whoever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back." And apparently, the filmmakers listened to the hag and got her back.


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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 17, 2010 1:16 am

Not bad, Eustace+Jill. And it isn't even as if there isn't a reference to the White Witch in VDT anyway. Remember the stone knife on Aslan's table? Do we get to see that?

Eustace+Jill wrote:the hag in the book PC did say, "Whoever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back."


Good point. Even if it isn't physically possible to get Jadis back, there are things like memory. I'll be okay with it so long as it is limited to the Dark Island and so long as Jadis doesn't appear in Silver Chair. Jadis as a lingering nightmare is one thing. But I doubt she really stands competition with, ahem, What's her greenish kirtle? Er, LOTGK ;;)
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Tirian541 » Sep 18, 2010 4:42 pm

It might just be me but I thought that The Witch appeared in all the books.
Here's what I thought:
In MN, Jadis is herself.
In LWW, as the White Witch.
In PC, the hag that was a friend of Nikabrik was the witch.
In VDT, on the table at Ramandu's Island lays the knife that the Witch used to "kill" Aslan.
In SC, as the Lady of the Green Kirtle.
In HHB, maybe as fear itself, Shasta is very fearfull till he meets Aslan.
In LB, as Tash. :)
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Re: The White Witch Issue

Postby Ithilwen » Sep 18, 2010 5:06 pm

That's a very good idea, Tirian541. After all, Satan and demons can appear in many different forms in our world, so I don't see why the Narnian Satan Figure couldn't appear in many different forms as well.
I've always thought the LOTGK was Jadis anyway, just in a different form (not because of the BBC production casting the same actress, or because of the HarperCollins books saying so in the Characters Section, but because of the actual text itself). :)


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