The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby shastastwin » Oct 16, 2014 5:06 am

That's a very good question, SL. I think that for the brief period of time between the Witch-king's fall and Sauron's, whoever wore it would have been both greater than before and subject to Sauron's dominance as the other Nazgul were, though its power would have failed with the One's since it was so tightly connected to the One. However, I think it's entirely possible that the ring didn't survive its bearer's death as there wasn't any mention of it in his remains (which doesn't always mean much with Tolkien).
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby Varnafinde » Oct 17, 2014 3:59 am

The ring was corrupting the Nazgul, not the other way round. If it had been taken from the Witch King, it would have been ready to corrupt a new bearer, starting by making him (or her) somehow greater.

But I agree that it's possible that the ring may not have survived its bearer's death. I wonder how, though?

Shadowlander wrote:The elves still wore their rings and remained unaffected, and at least a few of the Dwarves who still had access to them as well.


The Dwarves' rings, like the Men's rings, were made with Sauron being involved in their making, and thus they were under his dominance. But the Dwarves were more resistant to their rings' (and Sauron's) dominance than Men were.

The Elves' rings, on the other hand, were made without Sauron's involvement, only from his general ring-making lore. Those rings were subject to the One Ring, but not to the Lord of the Rings. When Sauron was not wearing his ring, the Elves could safely wear theirs.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby Meltintalle » Oct 17, 2014 9:29 am

It was pointed out to me that there was no discussion of this bit of marketing for the Hobbit.

Probably because a lot of it can be summed up with, "Oooooooookay..." 8-} :|

However, it did inspire this.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby Shadowlander » Oct 17, 2014 3:40 pm

I read the Sil only once and spent most of that time wishing I'd written footnotes as I read :)). A strong-willed character like Aragorn or what have you would have been able to use the ring to great effect. I know that at the end of RotK it is said (or at least insinuated) that the destruction of the One Ring makes all of the other rings inactive. But I thought Sauron crafted the One Ring after all of the others had been made...right? So how would its destruction result in the deactivation of the others powers? I know this seems like a rather silly question to ask, but I was just curious.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby Varnafinde » Oct 19, 2014 10:30 am

Shadowlander wrote:I read the Sil only once and spent most of that time wishing I'd written footnotes as I read :)).

You should indeed have written notes - and even more, you should have drawn a family tree. To know which Elf is parent, child, sibling, uncle/aunt, nephew/niece or cousin to which of the others, really takes a good tree - or, as in my case, some years of fan fiction RPGing :p
(The Fin...-named Elves - like Finwe, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Fingon, Finrod - are the most prominent - and confusing - examples ;) )

But I thought Sauron crafted the One Ring after all of the others had been made...right? So how would its destruction result in the deactivation of the others powers? I know this seems like a rather silly question to ask, but I was just curious.

I assume that Sauron knew all along that he would make a Master Ring, and that part of his Ring-lore was to make the other rings vulnerable to what was to come - even those other rings (of the Elves) that were only made with his lore, not with his direct involvement. In the Dwarves' and the Men's rings, his own power was directly involved.

The power of the One Ring was parts of Sauron's own power which he somehow managed to transfer into it, so I would think this is why the powers of all the rings (and Sauron's remaining powers) were connected and would fail when the Master Ring failed.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby daughter of the King » Oct 29, 2014 8:30 pm

Mel wrote:It was pointed out to me that there was no discussion of this bit of marketing for the Hobbit.

Oh. That thing. My main reaction to it was actually "the Elves are taking over because they can't stand to see Dwarves in the spotlight". :p All I'm seeing is Elf Army 2.0. And the Galadriel thing. Which I shall not speak of.

The bit of news that I found more interesting is the potential for LotR movie memorabilia at a narrative art museum in Chicago.

A narrative art museum sounds awesome, and LotR bigatures would be the icing on the cake. :ymdaydream:

And speaking of movie memorabilia, The TCM and Bonhams auction has three LotR items, including Anduril. Definitely too expensive to request as a birthday present. ;))
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby fantasia » Nov 06, 2014 2:23 pm

My thoughts on the newest Hobbit trailer can simply be summed up as this...

If you like the first two movies, you'll probably like the third movie. If you didn't like the first two movies, don't hold out hope for this one. ;))

SHOW SPOILER Stuff I liked
The CGI, as always, looks amazing. At the very least, it'll be a good popcorn flick.

I think I'm gonna like Bilbo more in the third movie. I feel like he hasn't had much of a chance to shine in the first two movies, but I think I'll like him more here. We'll see.


SHOW SPOILER The 'Meh' stuff
Anything and everything that has the appearance of potential romance. Galadriel + Gandalf. Kili + Tauriel. I'll withhold my final judgement until I see how it's actually portrayed in the movie because the initial appearances are often deceiving.

Thorin. Yeah, I know he gets that gold lust and is blinded to everything else, but somehow I feel like he hasn't been portrayed correctly. I haven't been able to put my finger on it, other than to say I liked him a lot in the book, but I don't care for him one bit in the movie.


SHOW SPOILER The stuff I strongly dislike
There is nothing I dislike more in book to movie adaptations, than the degradation of characters to either make them more "relatable" or to up the conflict. (ie Faramir) And in the Hobbit movies, Thranduil has been given that treatment. Yeah, I know he's a super minor role and he did show up to get his share of undeserved gold and such in the book, but he was not mean and cruel. He was more silly and aloof rather than spiteful and mean. Slapping Tauriel across the face? Really? /:) 8-| Yeah...

Aaaand to tie into the above, I'm really disliking the direction they took with Dol Guldor. I felt like it had a lot of potential, but having Gandalf get his behind kicked irks me to no end. *sighs* I don't know why they bothered putting a wizard in this movie, he clearly can't do anything and has no authority over anyone.
And for those of you who are better familiar with the story, does the white council even know it's Sauron? I know Gandalf refers to him as the Necromancer, but perhaps that was just a description he used?
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby shastastwin » Nov 06, 2014 2:48 pm

In response to your last question, FK, the Council did not realize that Sauron and the Necromancer were the same person until he had basically left Dol Guldur. I'm thinking that they will use the description of Galadriel's tearing the place down from the Appendices of LotR (which took place during LotR while the other big battles were raging) and put it here, which is fine by me as I'd like to see that on screen, but they have generally moved the Dol Guldur plotline faster than the books have it in order to set up the Hobbit trilogy as a sure-enough prequel to the LotR trilogy of films. :|
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby daughter of the King » Nov 06, 2014 6:41 pm

About the trailer:
Where is Dain Ironfoot?

Galadriel + Gandalf 8-|

Kili + Tauriel 8-| 8-|

Bilbo! Specifically, Bilbo sneaking away like a thief in the night. :D

In the book I got the impression that nearly everyone experienced gold lust. Want of gold is why Thranduil shows up. Only Gandalf and Bilbo really had no want for the gold at all. They've taken it to a bit of an extreme with the line of Durin. Making it that extreme only works if they get into Thrain having one of the seven rings. Rather like Denethor being mad only worked well when we knew about the palantir. Oh, wait, that wasn't in the movie. :| :p

I also don't like the direction they've taken with Thorin throughout the entire series. In the beginning of the book, he doesn't know how to be a leader, and most of his plans fail (Let's just send the burglar in to figure what the giant trolls are up to and when he doesn't come back we'll all go in one at a time. Stupendous idea!). It is through the journey that Thorin learns how to be a good leader and a king. And then he dies just when he finally understands. That's the tragedy of it. In the movie, they started off with him already being a leader. Makes for a very different character arc. I haven't decided if I like it yet or not.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby Meltintalle » Nov 08, 2014 1:58 pm

Overall, I like this trailer more than the previous one. Far less silly stuff.

Underall, I'm still disappointed with everything but the set dressings, cast and costumes, and score. :p
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby coracle » Dec 12, 2014 1:37 pm

I saw the final movie last night. The first watching was pretty impressive, especially as a lot of smaller plot items were unknowns. Overall a big production, with the team giving its finale in Middle Earth.
(It was big and loud, but there is no way a cute kiddie-friendly version could have competed in the modern movie world)
I am not doing spoilers but I was satisfied, and did enjoy most of it, and am not disappointed. It does encourage me to re-read the Appendices to LOTR.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby johobbit » Dec 16, 2014 6:22 pm

Cool, coracle!

So, is anyone else going to see TBotFA this week? Opening day is tomorrow here in North America. We may see it this weekend. I'm not exactly jumping up-and-down with anticipation (the polar opposite to awaiting the release of The Return of the King in Dec/03!), but we will see it once, at least, in the theatre. To be honest, I guess I am rather more apprehensive, than anything.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby King_Erlian » Dec 18, 2014 2:16 am

I saw TBotFA on Tuesday evening (I can't believe we got a major film in the UK before the US! :D ) I enjoyed it - it was long, but didn't feel it. I liked it better than TDoS. I felt it expanded upon the original story, rather than departed from it and did its own thing as TDoS did.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby daughter of the King » Dec 20, 2014 2:02 pm

Well, I just got back from The Hobbit: King Under the Mountain.

Wait, it was called something a lot longer and with too many "the"s in it, wasn't it?

Initial impression: a superior film to the first two, and a vast disappointment.

"Come with me, my Lady." WHAT WAS THAT.

Also, Arkenstone! Probably the only part I thoroughly enjoyed.


I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I think of it.
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby Varnafinde » Dec 20, 2014 10:04 pm

I just found (on a Tolkien board) a link to a real gem:
The Telegraph has reprinted an interview with JRR Tolkien originally published March 22, 1968.
JRR Tolkien: ‘Film my books? It's easier to film The Odyssey’

Tolkien receives innumerable offers for film rights, musical-comedy rights, TV rights, puppetry rights. A jigsaw-puzzle company has asked permission to produce a Ring puzzle, a soap-maker to soap-sculpt Ring characters. Tolkien worshippers are outraged by these crass approaches. “Please,” wrote a 17-year-old girl, “don’t let them make a movie out of your Ring. It would be like putting Disneyland into the Grand Canyon.”

He feels strongly that the Ring should not be filmed: “You can’t cramp narrative into dramatic form. It would be easier to film The Odyssey. Much less happens in it. Only a few storms.”

(In the end he did sell the film rights to The Hobbit and LotR, though [not to the then unpublished Silmarillion] - he felt he needed the money.)

About God's place in Middle-earth:

Some people have criticised the Ring as lacking religion. Tolkien denies this: “Of course God is in The Lord of the Rings. The period was pre-Christian, but it was a monotheistic world.”
Monotheistic? Then who was the One God of Middle-earth?
Tolkien was taken aback: “The one, of course! The book is about the world that God created – the actual world of this planet.”


The electronic reprint also includes some BBC footage about Tolkien, including Tolkien watching fireworks while somebody reads from the chapter about Bilbo's birthday party B-)
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Re: The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

Postby Lady Galadriel » Dec 24, 2014 2:12 pm

Well, now that I managed to see TBotFA last night, I came to read everyone's comments. :) I was trying to stay as spoiler free as possible -- and was also very busy with the school semester -- so I tried to stay away from a lot of marketing for The Hobbit.

I think it's safe to say that as 'The Epic Prequel to The Lord of the Rings' (just a title I somewhat sarcastically coined), it did a good job. For example, I was really intrigued by what they did with Saruman.
He's largely a good guy. But the last we see of him is cliffhanger-like. As he leaves the screen after having fought the Nazgul, he says so menacingly, "Leave Sauron to me."
It's an excellent piece of foreshadowing -- not too blatant, not too subtle. However, the movie isn't always so subtle with its foreshadowing.
For instance, the Nazgul are made blatantly obvious -- the members of the White Council know exactly who they are. As Galadriel quoted, "Nine for mortal men doomed to die," and Elrond: "You should have stayed dead!" I feel that the entire Dol Goldur sequence doesn't do justice to the Nazgul's first appearance in FotR. In FotR, they have such an element of horror and suspense, and I just feel that that is ruined by their blatant battle with the White Council. Remember Gandalf's reaction in FotR when Saruman tells him, "The Nine are abroad." To me, Gandalf's expression is one of horror and complete surprise. He shouldn't have been taken so off his guard if he had had a near fatal encounter with the Nazgul merely fifty years earlier (which is no time at all for a 3,000-year-old wizard.)
Keeping these changes, I may have to watch FotR again...

A second of the many problems I have with the Dol Goldur scene was
Galadriel's portrayal. I guess I've never completely approved of the way Galadriel has been portrayed in these films. In my opinion, she should never have been portrayed as dark and creepy in this scene! According to the FotR movie, she would have turned this way if she had Frodo's Ring of Power -- which she didn't have it in this scene.

I should also mention something I liked about this film. ;) I thought Richard Armitage was amazing as Thorin. He excellently portrayed
Thorin's changes in mood as he swung between the dragon sickness and sanity. Sometimes his mood switched in a single facial expression.
I thought it was superb acting on Armitage's part.

As for the very ending...
Thorin, Fili, and Kili's deaths...that was painful to watch! I can't comment! :((
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