The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien

[Lady Galadriel]

If Aragorn knows that Boromir is useless with a pile of paperwork, therefore Aragorn sends Boromir to fight his wars for him, it would bring too much glory to He Who Is Not Aragorn, and "that is how Tisrocs get overthrown." (Yes, Faramir would talk him out of it, but still, no king needs that kind of headache. So Tolkien killed him off.)

But Faramir didn't die. At least, not in The Return of the King. Or are you talking about Boromir?

It's partly that Aragorn Fan Club mentality that so irritated the sane book-Denethor. I might have mentioned it earlier upthread, but just because Aragorn knows all about war doesn't mean that he knows much about peace. Elvish poetry, courtly manners, and a famous sword won't rebuild burned-out towns, make the rains fall in a famine, or regulate the money supply. You need a career bureaucrat for that sort of thing. Denethor commented that he didn't want to be the "dotard chamberlain of an upstart" i.e. to do the same job of running the bureaucracy for no glory and no pay.

Just to throw in a thought here -- Denethor hadn't known Aragorn, as far as I recall (but correct me if I am wrong; it's been too long since I read the book ). If I am correct, however, then he may just be assuming that Aragorn is actually an upstart. But he's not. Although he is only a new king by the end of the series, he's old enough to know a lot more than other men who come to power at a much earlier age. If he receives glory, I think it is because he didn't lose hope (unlike Denethor). He also joined in the battle himself, but Denethor wouldn't.

Just my two cents... Sorry if I am missing the point or misunderstanding what you said. This is just what I'm thinking when I read your post.

This is a very interesting topic for you to bring up and one that I hadn't really thought of before.

[Varnafinde]

Just to throw in a thought here -- Denethor hadn't known Aragorn, as far as I recall (but correct me if I am wrong; it's been too long since I read the book ). If I am correct, however, then he may just be assuming that Aragorn is actually an upstart. But he's not. Although he is only a new king by the end of the series, he's old enough to know a lot more than other men who come to power at a much earlier age. If he receives glory, I think it is because he didn't lose hope (unlike Denethor). He also joined in the battle himself, but Denethor wouldn't.

According to the Appendices, Denethor had known Aragorn, only under a different name.

APPENDIX A - part iv
"Ecthelion II, son of Turgon, was a man of wisdom. [...] In much that he did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born. [...] He was a great leader of men, by land or by sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.
[...]
There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.

'Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father. At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master, though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father.
[...] Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him."

The next part of that part of the Appendix is about Denethor. It's worth reading.

Denethor is probably right that Aragorn may not have experience in administration of a country in times of peace - at least not the same level of experience that he himself has.

And he does not think that an heir of the Chieftains of the North is on the same level as a direct descendant of the last King of Gondor would have been. Thus an upstart.

[Lady Galadriel]

Interesting... Thank you for referring me to the appendices.

From what I can tell, it seems that there likely was, after all, some tension between Denethor and Thorongil before the events of ROTK. However, except for the spot where Denethor suspects that Thorongil and Mithrandir have planned to supplant him, it seems to me (in every other place) that Aragorn would have been fair with him if he had only waited.

(I am a little confused now, though. Why would Denethor suspect that Thorongil and Mithrandir were planning to supplant him? Of course, the appendix says that this is only going by the thoughts of many, and that Denethor himself was very perceptive. But from what I know of Mithrandir, he wouldn't displace someone without a very good reason. I don't suppose there is any more information on this anywhere else?)

Of course, in my interpretation of Denethor, I am probably more influenced by the movie adaptation; and everyone says he is much weaker in personality in the movie than in the book.

Still, it also says elsewhere in the appendices (not long before the spot you quoted to me) that the stewards' duty is to "hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return." Are you basically saying in your last paragraph that Denethor did not believe Aragorn to be the returning king? Denethor believes he himself to be of stronger lineage? In that case, I suppose it would make sense for him to believe Aragorn to be an upstart, but that doesn't mean Aragorn really is.

Is it even possible for Denethor to have stronger lineage than Isildur's heir?

Here is the section from Appendix A, part IV labeled "The Stewards":

Each new Steward indeed took office with the oath 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return'. But these soon became words of ritual little heeded, for the Stewards exercised all the power of the kings. Yet many in Gondor still believed that a king would indeed return in some time to come, and some remembered the ancient line of the North, which it was rumoured still lived on in the shadows. But against such thoughts the Ruling Stewards hardened their hearts.

So it seems to me that the Stewards did not want the king to return, probably because they do not want to have their hard work in leadership to go unnoticed. But I'm not getting the impression that Aragorn wouldn't give them their rightful due if he was given the chance to do so.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

[Mehinen]

Perhaps, because the Stewards had ruled so long, they had started to think of themselves as the true lords of Gondor and ignored the line of kings, possibly thinking that it didn't exist anymore and were almost like kings themselves ("--against [the thought of the return of the King] the Ruling Stewards hardened their hearts"). That would explain that Denethor, who had expected his whole life to rule one day Gondor, would be somewhat unhappy at the thought of Aragorn coming there (as both Thorongil and Elessar) and taking the throne. Denethor is not thinking quite straight anyway, at one point he says that it would make more than ten thousand years to make a king of Gondorian Steward, but then he calls the heir of kings an upstart? I wouldn't put much weight on Denethor's opinions , especially when he may still be bitter about people liking "Thorongil" more. He just wanted to rule as long as possible. That's what I think.

About Aragorn not knowing how to run a kingdom... "Ecthelion II, son of Turgon, was a man of wisdom. -- In much that he did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all." That doesn't sound like all Aragorn/Thorongil did was to fight battles, so he may have had suprisingly much knowledge (Denethor must have had more practical experience, though). And there must have been something else to do in Arnor than wandering around.

[Varnafinde]

From what I can tell, it seems that there likely was, after all, some tension between Denethor and Thorongil before the events of ROTK. However, except for the spot where Denethor suspects that Thorongil and Mithrandir have planned to supplant him, it seems to me (in every other place) that Aragorn would have been fair with him if he had only waited.

(I am a little confused now, though. Why would Denethor suspect that Thorongil and Mithrandir were planning to supplant him? Of course, the appendix says that this is only going by the thoughts of many, and that Denethor himself was very perceptive. But from what I know of Mithrandir, he wouldn't displace someone without a very good reason. I don't suppose there is any more information on this anywhere else?)

Denethor's father favored Thorongil over his own son - plenty of tension there, and an interesting parallell to the way Denethor later treats Faramir.

In a sense, they were going to supplant Denethor - that is, they were going to remove the Steward's position as de facto ruler of Gondor, and replace it with the King. But just as Aragorn tells Faramir to keep his position as Steward under the King, I'm sure he would have done the same to Denethor, had Denethor lived. Denethor might not have appreciated being Steward under the King, though.

Still, it also says elsewhere in the appendices (not long before the spot you quoted to me) that the stewards' duty is to "hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return." Are you basically saying in your last paragraph that Denethor did not believe Aragorn to be the returning king? Denethor believes he himself to be of stronger lineage? In that case, I suppose it would make sense for him to believe Aragorn to be an upstart, but that doesn't mean Aragorn really is.

Is it even possible for Denethor to have stronger lineage than Isildur's heir?

He doesn't have stronger lineage himself, but he thinks that Aragorn's lineage isn't strong enough.

Gondor long held that Isildur and his heirs were only rulers of Arnor, and that his brother Anarion's heirs were the rulers of Gondor. When the direct line of Anarion failed some hundred years earlier, the then King of Arnor suggested that it might be time for a King of the United Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor (seeing also that his Queen was of Anarion's line).

Gondor refused his claim, though, and chose instead someone of a sideline of Anarion to be their new King. When even that line failed (and the King had disappeared and nobody could be sure that he had died), they had the Stewards rule in the name of the King, rather than choosing a third line.

Here's Denethor's own words in the matter - to Gandalf just before he dies on the pyre:

"With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.
‘But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’

‘What then would you have,’ said Gandalf, ‘if your will could have its way?’

‘I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,’ answered Denethor, ‘and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil."

So it seems to me that the Stewards did not want the king to return, probably because they do not want to have their hard work in leadership to go unnoticed. But I'm not getting the impression that Aragorn wouldn't give them their rightful due if he was given the chance to do so.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

He seems to claim that only one of the line of Anarion would have the right lineage. The line of Isildur had even lost the kingdom of Arnor - it had dissolved and split into smaller realms, ruled by chieftains. It's likely that Elendil might have united Arnor and Gondor, though, if he hadn't fallen in the combat against Sauron. Even Isildur might have tried, if he hadn't been betrayed by the Ring.

And Aragorn does give Faramir his rightful due when he is given the chance.

[Ithilwen]

Peter Jackson posted another video blog on his Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

SHOW SPOILER

I see a fire in the forest in one part of the video... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... that wasn't in the book, was it?

~Riella

[shastastwin]

That was a fun video. Not as spoiler-filled as I want, but still good.

Ithi, I'm pretty sure that fire is the one the Goblins and Wargs set to get them out of the trees. That's the only fire that I can remember. Still, it seems to be a bit of a change.

Also, the bit at the end about Kiran Shah taking over the role of Legolas was too funny.

[daughter of the King]

Or

SHOW SPOILER

the fire could be when Smaug attacks. He attacks the Dwarves after speaking to Bilbo and eats their ponies as well as attacking Laketown.

[Pattertwigs Pal]

SHOW SPOILER

I see a fire in the forest in one part of the video... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... that wasn't in the book, was it?

SHOW SPOILER

I quickly scanned a couple parts of the book. Gandalf sends lighted pine cones down on the Wargs which sets part of the forest on fire. The Goblins then light the trees on fire to get the dwarves down. However, no dwarves should be running in the fire. Later Smaug becomes angry and searches for the thieves after Bilbo steals the cup. Bomber and Bofur were down with the ponies. Smaug was breathing fire. It seemed from reading the book that he hadn't yet gotten to the part of the mountain where the ponies and them were but I suppose it is possible the fire had. However, I couldn't identify the dwarf in that scene so I'm not sure if it was one of those two. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Bomber, but I suppose it could be Bofur.

They seem to have a lot of fun doing those videos. I agree with your last statement shastastwin.

I'm bothered that the dwarves are riding in the barrels with their heads out. That is not the way it was in the book. It does look like fun though. It would make a great amusement park ride.

[AslansChild]

Peter Jackson posted another video blog on his Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

Would someone mind posting a YouTube link for that please? Thank you!


Well, in other news, the Hobbit Premiere is officially set for November 28th in Wellington @ The Embassy Theater. (natch )

Why is the premiere so much earlier then the film's release? I thought the premiere and the release were the same day?

Also, Beecake, the group that Billy Boyd (Pippin) is in, released a new music video.


It's not bad...but it's not great either. At least to me...
It's weird to think of him without seeing him as Pippin, I keep thinking of this:

[daughter of the King]

Why is the premiere so much earlier then the film's release? I thought the premiere and the release were the same day?

Most films aren't released world-wide at the same time. Usually there's a few weeks in between the premiere in one country and the theatrical release in another country. Sometimes it can take months. The Nov. 28 date is probably the New Zealand premiere and there will be a later, world-wide premiere on the day of the world-wide release (which would be the December date).

Twigs, if they include that part I'm sure they'll make it a little bit more intense.

SHOW SPOILER

Like having Bofur and Bombur almost trapped in Smaug's flames or something rather than getting away before he reaches them. Or it could be a good comic relief moment with Bombur huffing and puffing and hopelessly running away. I think it was Bofur in that scene, but I'd have to watch it again to be sure. His face isn't really visible in that shot anyway, so we'll have to identify him by the silhouette of his hat.

[Ithilwen]

A new Hobbit movie spoiler was released that said there would be a romance in the movie, which was not in the book.

Here's the link to the article.



~Riella

[AslansChild]

Yeah.........I saw that Ithilwen. Did you happen to look at all the comments on the TOR forum?

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/g ... t=20788904

To quote TOR member Not_the_beard

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...Notice where the quotation marks are. It's the magazine who says he's pursuing the elf. I feel like that's spoiler material Aidan wouldn't be entitled to share. He probably was asked that question and jokingly went a long with it.

Also, I have to agree with him.

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PJ wouldn't dare.

Agreed. LoL. But also, when we think about it, in LOTR Gimili

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Has a thing for Galadriel

So...I dont know. It just seems too weird to actually be in the film. Can you imagine?

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Small dwarf - big elf.

Since I'm on the subject of dwarves and elves, I have a question for all you Ringers.



Since when are elves of human height? I mean, ever think about it? We're raised with the theory of Santa and his little elves, but them we come to find out that elves are in fact human size. So really, it should be Santa and his little dwarves...right?

[shastastwin]

That's strange, though I don't know that I agree with the sentiment that PJ "wouldn't dare." He has a great deal of respect for Tolkien's materials, but it doesn't extend that far, IMO.

Also, regarding AslansChild's first spoiler: I never got the impression that he "had a thing" for Galadriel beyond appreciating her beauty and wisdom. Describing that as "having a thing" for her is a bit crass, especially since what's in the film of Fellowship is not more than what the book says (as far as I remember).

[Ithilwen]

But also, when we think about it, in LOTR Gimili

SHOW SPOILER

Has a thing for Galadriel

I never really got that impression. He was definitely in awe of her, but that doesn't mean there was any romantic attachments or feelings on his part. Just like we can be in awe of Christ and give Him praises, and just like people can be in awe of even earthly leaders, I think dwarves can be in awe of Elves and praise them without it being a romantic situation.

As for the spoiler, the comments could be right. But you never know. I have heard before this that there would be some kind of romance involving Tauriel. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

By the way, what does everyone think about Armitage's statement that Thorin doesn't have much confidence in himself? Because I always got the opposite impression from the book.


~Riella

[AslansChild]

shastastwin & Ithilwen: I was just going off of what John Gilbert (the editor) said in a video I had seen. (I can try and find it if you'd like to see it for yourselves) I was just watching the video and he commented that:

SHOW SPOILER

There's alot of little things from the book...even things that set events in the film too like Gimili falling in love with Galadriel and the gift giving in Lothlorien.

Then is shows a clip from the film (I'm assuming the FOTR EE...having never seen any of the EE) of

SHOW SPOILER

Galadriel and her elves giving the Fellowship some gifts, like Lego-Las a bow and Merry and Pippin their belts like in TTT, and then we see Galadriel say to Gimili:

And what gift would a dwarf ask of the elves?

To which he replies,

To look upon the lady of the Galdrin (< spelling? ) one last time.

So, I'm sorry if it came across weird. (and I had no intention for it to be crass)I don't know if it was in the books or not, I was just using that as an example that it could go either way in the Hobbit film.