Wuv, Twue Wuv -- and Mawwiage!

[stardf29]

I just mean that if we are already doing all we can, and nothing is happening, it might be because it's not in God's timing yet.

Okay, now I see where you're coming from.

What I think I'd like to add, then, is that if we're doing all we can, something is happening. It may not fully come into being until later and on God's timing, but I'd say that, especially in the world of romance, we shouldn't necessarily judge success by results, such as finding "the one". The journey there is every bit as important, if not even more so.

I cannot speak specifically for your mother's case, and I'm not one to mull over "what would have happened" (wasn't there a Narnia quote about that? ), so I'll just say that, while your mother might not have been actively dating, she seemed to have been living life in a proactive, God-honoring way, and did what she needed to make a relationship work once one did come her way, so I'd say your mother lived well, and I never thought that your mother's case was anything like the "bad" cases I'm aware of.

Now, with all that in mind, going back to your original question...

What should a person do if all the people they meet aren't the right one?

Presuming that all other things are more or less in order, I'd say just keep on going. Keep working at it. Persevere. The journey is more important than the destination, and dating can be a place for a certain sort of spiritual growth. Have a team of friends who can help you out if something in particular is holding you back.

And probably most importantly, don't see someone who "isn't the right one" as a total loss. I now think that dating can be a good time to just meet all sorts of different people, practice serving others, and in the meantime learn more about yourself. And it's a time to have fun, which is good in and of itself (so long as you're not sinning, of course, but fun isn't sinful on its own). And even where "the one" is not found, good friends can be found instead.

Maybe the real erroneous belief that is worth changing is that dating always has to be about marriage. That is nowhere in the Bible, to be sure (well, "dating" is nowhere in the Bible, so... yeah). Now, if you're going to get really serious and exclusive with someone, marriage should be the main consideration. But a certain level of casual dating, where both parties know things are not exclusive or serious, and where the focus is not on marriage, can take off some of the pressure that plagues dating and keep people from rushing into commitments that will ultimately hurt them, and other benefits.

The bottom line, though, is that if you are doing all you can, then something is happening, and it is something good, even if that good thing is not "finding the one".

[Ithilwen]

Stardf29, thanks, that answers my question now. I'm glad that example helped straighten out what I was saying. I'm afraid I'm not always as clear as I want to be. I don't know if it's due to my dyslexia or what. But I'm glad I was finally able to express what I was really trying to get at. XD


~Riella

[Aslanisthebest]

I have a question. If dating is not about marriage, what is its purpose then?
I've asked this question in the past and what I get is the giggly, "you know...to get to know other people! ", which I find an unsatisfactory answer. I'm curious to see what y'all say.

[stardf29]

Ah, that is a good question. Certainly, the purpose of dating is important, even if that purpose is not marriage; those who go into dating with no purpose or the wrong ones will end up in bad places.

The following "purposes" are ones given in the introduction to Boundaries in Dating by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend (yes, those two guys again ):

"1. Dating gives people the opportunity to learn about themselves, others, and relationships in a safe context." Now, obviously, there are ways in which dating can be really unsafe. But as a low-commitment relationship, dating can, within the proper boundaries and the help of an outside support group, be a good place to discover things for the first time. Having that outside support system of trusted friends who can help them decode the various new elements they might encounter. Some things dating can help you discover: "the opposite sex (in general), your own sexual feelings, moral limits, one's need for relationship skills, and one's tastes in people."

"2. Dating provides a context to work through issues." You can see if you are attracted to people you shouldn't be, if you need to re-align what values are important in a relationship or what is important in other people, and all sorts of that stuff. You can not only unearth broken thinking patterns, but also see if those patterns are connected to something in your past that needs to be healed (outside of dating).

"3. Dating helps build relationship skills." This one is fairly self-explanatory. You don't want to self-deceive yourself into thinking your relationship skills are better than they are while going into a serious relationship...

"4. Dating can heal and repair." Now, this should never be the primary purpose of dating, due to the low-commitment nature of it. Healing should primarily take place in nondating relationships. But a healthy dating relationship, even if it does not lead to marriage, can be a good nutritional supplement to one's emotional health.

"5. Dating is relational and has value in and of itself." By this, they mean that as a relationship, dating is a place where the two involved can express and receive Godly love (not necessarily in a romantic flavor), by serving the other person, sharing things with the other person, spending time with him/her, and opening up into intimacy. In dating, all these need to have proper boundaries, both physical and emotional, but within those boundaries, the love of Christ can be expressed, and that is valuable regardless of the outcome of the relationship.

"6. Dating lets someone learn what he or she likes in the opposite sex." I think this one speaks for itself too. It's the whole "get to know other people" thing, but perhaps with a bit more purpose to it.

"7. Dating gives a context to learn sexual self-control and other delay of gratification." Quick story: a well-known psychological test placed various children, ages 4-6, into a mostly-empty room, except for one treat of the child's choice, say, a marshmallow. The examiner tells the child they can eat the marshmallow now, or wait fifteen minutes, when the examiner will return with two marshmallows. Now, some children could wait, and some could not. However, after all the children grew up, those that could wait back then were much better socially-adjusted than those who did not. (They also had higher SAT scores, for that matter.) Point: delay of gratification (a.k.a. self-control) is one of the most important character traits to bring into a relationship. Good thing is, those who did not quite have it when they were younger can always learn it when they are older. Dating can be one of those places where one can learn that skill. (Now, of course, one needs to approach this with an attitude that they do want to save sex for marriage in order for that part of all this to work.)

These are taken from the book, not from me in particular. So I am interested in what others think of these "purposes" of dating.

Edit: v mm1991, I wouldn't say your post is useless. It explains some of #1, #2, and #6 quite well.

[mm1991]

The first thing I want to say about your view on what seems to be similar to the courtship model, is that there are very many women who did exactly that and still ended up divorced or with broken off courtships. I just hope you understand that it isn't a "fool-proof" way of avoiding heartbreak.

As for dating, it can be productive. It doesn't have to be physical or you definitely don't have to go somewhere with your fate "all alone" (in fact, if a first date suggested not meeting in a public place, I would consider that kind of creepy and cancel). Dating is good because you start to understand more about yourself and what you want in a relationship. On paper, you could say you want such-and-such or maybe you wouldn't mind him being this-and-that. However, going on dates with people who encompass these traits can be very different than what you thought. You may realize that you can't handle something or that your "list" is clearly missing another trait.

You can still date and "guard your heart" and be "pure". Dates are only as serious and high-pressured as people make them to be.

EDIT: I did not see stardf29's post. He did an incredibly thorough job and now renders my post meaningless.

[Marigold Gamgee]

I was involved in some of the very earliest incarnations of this thread, and I disagree with many of the thoughts I had at that time. I'm embarrassed about how naive I was, actually. I know less now than I thought I knew then about how things should be.

I'm not a fan of the courtship model at all now. Setting up rules where God has not set them up is a dangerous thing to be doing. That said, we are called to love our neighbors as ourselves. Instead of setting up lists of rules and guidelines, perhaps as an alternative we can choose to do what is most loving for the other person in whatever situation we are in. I'm the sort of a person who would like an exact list of what to do in every situation, but life doesn't always work out that way.

[Aslanisthebest]

Thank-you for your responses, stardf and mm1991. I really appreciate it.

[...]

[stardf29]

Aslanisthebest, I would say that right now you have the right idea. Get healing from a good, non-dating set of relationships before moving any further into all this.

Now, I'm just going to address only a few points, just because.

First of all, what I'm considering "dating" to be (as well as how the authors previously mentioned see it), is that there is a type of dating where two people of the opposite gender can hang out together and have fun, with absolutely zero expectation that there will be any romance developing and no extent to which the relationship is exclusive: you can date many people at one time, even. Now, perhaps that sounds more like a friendship to you, and that would pretty much be true. If you're defining dating as only where two people enter into a relationship exclusively and cultivate romance, then yes, the relationship should be approached with an eye towards marriage.

But my previous post mostly applies to this sort of not-serious, "friendship-dating" as well as serious dating. Of course, this is all semantics, so maybe the question should be: when the time is right, would you be willing to have a friendly, one-on-one get-together with a guy to learn more about yourself and whatnot?

I honestly can not understand when people say, “In high-school/college/last year, I had this boyfriend….” and then they mention a whole lot of other things and have somehow “gotten over” that guy long ago.

My guess would be, they have grieved over the ended relationship enough to let go of it. By grieving, we accept that there are good parts to something that are going to be lost, and that we are also going to be getting rid of bad parts that could hold us back otherwise. Without grieving, a past relationship becomes baggage, with the person still missing those good parts and oftentimes still blind to the bad parts. But once they grieve, that past relationship becomes a memory, one with good parts they can cherish for what they were worth during that season in life without any sense that they need it currently, and the bad parts are acknowledged as things to avoid in the future, with lessons learned appropriately.

[Ithilwen]

Question: How do you tell if your feelings on marriage are healthy ones? I've seen people who had an extreme desire to get married, and it seemed healthy and good for them, and led them to good things. I've also seen people with an extreme desire to get married that wasn't so healthy. So how do you tell which one your own feelings are? Whether it's just a strong, healthy desire God has placed in you, or if it's an obsession or idol?

And if it is the second, what can you do about it?

And can this "delay" your marriage at all? What I mean is, if it is an idol to you, would God keep you single until you learned to stop idolizing it?


~Riella

[stardf29]

*sigh* I was hoping I wouldn't be the one to answer this, because it seems that my posts are quite taking over this thread I mean, I may sound like a relationship expert, but I most definitely am not. I mean, I haven't even gone on a date yet! Most of my "knowledge" is compiled from things I've learned in psychology class and in various books I've read. (And, of course, the Bible.)

So, the following advice on whether or not your desire for marriage is a healthy one comes from another book by Dr. Henry Cloud, who, I should mention, has been a "dating coach" for several years. In fact, the book of reference this time is How To Get A Date Worth Keeping.

In this book, he offers the following questions for you to ask yourself if your marriage desire is healthy.

"1. Are you content with your life?" This goes back to the whole "whole person times whole person equals whole marriage", and likewise, "half person times half person equals 1/4-marriage". Whatever your desire for marriage is, be content if that desire is not satisfied.

"2. Are you seeking a relationship to end loneliness?" If so, you're in trouble. Either your judgment will be clouded and you'll pick bad people, or you might have an inability to connect which will go into marriage, making you lonely even while you're married. (Oftentimes, it's both.) Get connected in safe, non-romantic friendships and get your emotional needs met there first.

"3. What are you expecting marriage to provide for you?" For example, many people get married or want to because it will make them "happy". However, the research shows that unhappy people who get married become unhappy married people; conversely, people who are already happy that get married become a happy married couple. You may be looking to marriage for other things, but be realistic about your expectations of marriage, and if you are looking to marriage to somehow "heal" you of some deficiency, there is some way to be healed of it without going into a relationship.

"4. Do you see marriage as a romantic fantasy or some other kind of unending bliss?" Yes, marriages can be quite blissful... if we work on them. Marriage requires sacrifice, commitment, and working things out between two imperfect people. The fruit of all this is very good. But you can't get the fruit without doing some gardening (because this fruit sure isn't for sale at the supermarket!). Furthermore, there is going to be pain even in the best of marriages, and most marriages aren't the best (since, you know, only one can be the best). So, be realistic.

"5. Do you think that marriage is going to make your life significantly "better"?" This one ties in to #3 and #4. You should be already having a great life as a single; certainly, not one that is "broken" and needs someone else to fix it. Most people don't want to be their partner's "life fixer", and the ones that do, I believe the word for them is "codependents"; they're not the kind you want to marry in the first place.

"6. Do you want to get married to prove that you are okay?" In other words, do you want to do it to "fit in" with society, or make your parents happy, or some other external measure like that? (Hint: that doesn't work. And if it does, you probably should be hanging around different people.)

Now, all those said, what do you do if you have an unhealthy desire for marriage? Well, get healthy outside of marriage!

Connect with other people so that you are not lonely, and so they can provide feedback on your life (such as, whether they think you have an unhealthy desire for marriage). Live a fulfilling life as a single. Have boundaries so you are not a codependent or end up with one. Resolve significant "unwholeness" you have. Make sure you have become an adult and have emotionally "left home", such that you are no longer bound to your parents and can relate to them on an adult-to-adult level. And be connected with God, of course.

And can this "delay" your marriage at all? What I mean is, if it is an idol to you, would God keep you single until you learned to stop idolizing it?

Maybe. Maybe not. God does let people live out the consequences of their sin, including letting people who are idolizing marriage get married and realize that marriage isn't all they've made it to be, then letting them choose from there whether they wish to repent. He might also let such people realize that their marriage-idolization is actually making them incapable of bringing a relationship to marriage in the first place. And yes, sometimes, He does go ahead and supernaturally keep you bound to singleness until you stopped... or even just supernaturally tell you to stop it (through a modern-day prophet; they do exist!).

I'd say, if you really want God to stop you if you have an unhealthy marriage desire, pray to Him about that. Ask Him to reveal the depths of your heart (I believe there's something in Psalm 139 about this) to find any idolatry behind your desire for marriage.

[Ithilwen]

Thanks for the reply.

"1. Are you content with your life?"

This question was tricky for me to answer. Am I content with my life? Would I want my life to be going on as it is now? No... But, you read the Prayer Request thread about what my life is like right now; being trapped at home all the time, being unable to do anything. No one is going to be happy with that life, and we are trying to fix it. That being said, even in that situation I have been pretty happy under the circumstances. I do tend to find ways to be cheerful despite the situation, and have always been generally known as a happy person with a cheerful disposition.

This goes back to the whole "whole person times whole person equals whole marriage", and likewise, "half person times half person equals 1/4-marriage".

I definitely would consider myself whole as a person. I don't expect someone to come along and "complete" me. I consider myself complete already; not perfect, but complete as a person.

Whatever your desire for marriage is, be content if that desire is not satisfied.

I think I would be extremely sad and disappointed if I found out I would never marry, because that's one of the main things I look forward to most in life. I have a great desire to get married, and I think about it quite often. However, I wouldn't "cease to be me" if I never married. It's not as if "everything I am" hinges on my future marriage. I'm also a child of God, a friend, an author, a graphics-maker, and a lot of other things. If I found out I would never get married, my life would not be the sort of life I would have wanted at all... but it wouldn't be a wasted life. I would make the best of it and most likely still be happy, just like I'm pretty happy in the unfavorable circumstances I'm in now (described in that Prayer Section post I linked you to earlier).

"2. Are you seeking a relationship to end loneliness?" If so, you're in trouble. Either your judgment will be clouded and you'll pick bad people, or you might have an inability to connect which will go into marriage, making you lonely even while you're married. (Oftentimes, it's both.) Get connected in safe, non-romantic friendships and get your emotional needs met there first.

Being at home a lot, I would say I am lonely. We are trying to get out of that situation to fix that, though. And in the meantime, I have some pretty great friendships here on NW. I don't know if that counts or not, but it's the best I can do at the moment. And I do remind myself quite often that, when the time comes to pick a husband, to be extremely careful in my choice and make sure it's the right person and that I like them for the right reasons. I've seen a lot of examples of marriages gone wrong due to picking a person out of desperation or some other bad reason. I would rather stay single all my life than marry someone I shouldn't be with.

"3. What are you expecting marriage to provide for you?" For example, many people get married or want to because it will make them "happy". However, the research shows that unhappy people who get married become unhappy married people; conversely, people who are already happy that get married become a happy married couple. You may be looking to marriage for other things, but be realistic about your expectations of marriage, and if you are looking to marriage to somehow "heal" you of some deficiency, there is some way to be healed of it without going into a relationship.

I don't think I've really thought much about what it will "provide" for me. I guess I've just always felt led to do it. Like it was God's will that I marry someday. The life I've always wanted was to have a family and live a quiet life taking care of them, doing community work, writing my novels, and basically living a nice family life. I certainly don't expect marriage to "heal" me in any way, or magically make my problems go away or anything. It's simply that I have a desire to get married; a desire I believe was placed there by God.

"4. Do you see marriage as a romantic fantasy or some other kind of unending bliss?" Yes, marriages can be quite blissful... if we work on them. Marriage requires sacrifice, commitment, and working things out between two imperfect people. The fruit of all this is very good. But you can't get the fruit without doing some gardening (because this fruit sure isn't for sale at the supermarket!). Furthermore, there is going to be pain even in the best of marriages, and most marriages aren't the best (since, you know, only one can be the best). So, be realistic.

I do dream about marriage, of course; and about the person I'll marry. I don't think you'll ever find a young, single girl who doesn't do that. But I certainly don't expect it to be perfect. No relationship between two individuals are. I certainly don't expect it to be misery and fighting all the time. At least, I would hope it's not. But it's a case of an imperfect human being dealing with another imperfect human being. It takes work, just like any other relationship takes work. Even more so, since you're living with the person 24/7. There will be misunderstandings, disagreements, one person putting up with the other person's foolishness (on both sides) at times, needing to forgive, needing forgiveness yourself, etc. I expect it to be a learning experience, I expect it to be awesome, I expect it to be blissful, I expect it to be a challenge I'm excited to face.

"5. Do you think that marriage is going to make your life significantly "better"?" This one ties in to #3 and #4. You should be already having a great life as a single; certainly, not one that is "broken" and needs someone else to fix it. Most people don't want to be their partner's "life fixer", and the ones that do, I believe the word for them is "codependents"; they're not the kind you want to marry in the first place.

I think I kind of answered this one in previous answers. And for another thing, I'm not really that "broken". I don't think I've really been through enough to really become broken. I do have problems, of course. Sins I have to work on, and bad parts of my heart and mind I pray about and should continue praying about. Marriage won't fix those things; only God can do that. However, I do have a great desire to get married. As I said, I believe God put that in me, and I don't think that desire will go away until it's fulfilled, because I believe God wants it to be fulfilled. So, I guess you could say that's one thing marriage would "fix", if you look at it a certain way. That is, if you consider "fixing" and "fulfilling" to be similar at all. *shrugs*

"6. Do you want to get married to prove that you are okay?" In other words, do you want to do it to "fit in" with society, or make your parents happy, or some other external measure like that? (Hint: that doesn't work. And if it does, you probably should be hanging around different people.)

This one isn't the case at all. My parents and friends don't really care if I get married or not (and it doesn't matter what they want, even if they did), and I don't care anything for society.


So, what do you think? Does it sound like I have a healthy view on marriage, or is there "danger lurking in my desire"?


~Riella

[stardf29]

Well, here is my opinion (and it is not an expert opinion):

Your approach towards marriage is healthy enough. If you want something to expect marriage to provide for you, expect it to help shape you more into the image of Christ. And, in a rather trial-by-fire way.

Now, that said, knowing about your situation, I know that your family is currently taking steps to resolve all that. I would say that at the moment, pursuing the resolution of that situation should be done, rather than pursuing marriage. I think that should help bring you to a point of healing and content-ness.

I would also make sure you have a good group of offline, local friends (wherever local will be) that you can open up to, before doing anything in the romance field. They should be able to view your life more closely than any of us online can, and thus can give you important feedback, especially in the case you start acting desperate for some reason. And through those friends, you should be able to cure any residual loneliness.

But I'd say there's nothing wrong with your desire in and of itself.

[MoonlightDancer]

I'll answer these questions. I have been single for about 3 weeks due to the inability of a long distance relationship. (Any thoughts on distance relationships?)
"1. Are you content with your life?"
I'm content, but always striving for more and looking towards the future.

2. Are you seeking a relationship to end loneliness?
To be honest that has been a big part of why I got into my past relationships. I have some really great friends and even guy friends that I am extremely close to, but let's be honest, great friendships can't replace that special someone. So I disagree with Josh Harris on this one.

3. What are you expecting marriage to provide for you?
I can't really comment on this one, I really have no clue. Perhaps stability and companionship.

4.Do you see marriage as a romantic fantasy or some other kind of unending bliss?
Unending bliss? Sounds like nirvana. Hahaha. That's just silly. No.

5.. Do you think that marriage is going to make your life significantly "better"?" Realistically yes. It will. But not in some bizarre extreme fantasy, but yes having that companion will be better. Even God says, "It is not good for man to be alone."

6. Do you want to get married to prove that you are okay? Seeing as I don't particularly want to get married soon (but in the future) it will be for my own reasons and not to prove anything to anyone. I do what I want.

[stardf29]

Uh, first of all, none of that was from Josh Harris.

Now, that said...

...let's be honest, great friendships can't replace that special someone.

I'd also flip that statement around: "that special someone" cannot replace great friendships. (Of course, "that special someone" should be one of your greatest friendships too.)

Now really, to clarify the whole "loneliness" point, remember that wanting to get married is a desire. It is a very strong desire, and, I believe, a God-given one that is very good in many ways. But it is ultimately a desire; if it goes unfulfilled, our lives can still function quite well.

Loneliness, however, is indicative of a need: the need to connect with other people, opening up to them, being vulnerable to them, and receiving both grace and truth from them. When people aren't connected with others at all, their lives get messed up. And trying to get into a relationship to fulfill this need is very dangerous. (By the way, it's possible to be in a relationship, even marriage, and still be lonely.)

I'd say that if someone has friends but still feels lonely, he probably isn't connecting very well with his friends in the ways I mentioned above. If he is connecting well with those friends, but still feels incomplete without "that special someone", then it might be more of an issue of what he is expecting marriage to provide for him (which would be question #3). But if things are going well, his drive for marriage will be one fueled by a healthy desire, not a need.

As for long-distance relationships: they're fine for a season, but I would say that there should be a good, long period of time where the two people are short-distance and can observe each other before any serious commitments should be made.

[MoonlightDancer]

Whoops! Sorry...just kidding. Not Josh Harris.

And trying to get into a relationship to fulfill this need is very dangerous.

I disagree.

I'd say that if someone has friends but still feels lonely, he probably isn't connecting very well with his friends in the ways I mentioned above.

I don't think so. I talk to my friends about everything under the sun. I have friends from all walks of life and several friends that know everything there is to know about me, including my deepest secrets. I always have someone to talk to who connects with me, but there are times when I'm still lonely, when all I want is to just be in someone's arms. I can cuddle with my friends but it's not the same as having that "one" person to always go to. Sorry if that's weird.

[narnian_at_heart]

Question: How do you tell if your feelings on marriage are healthy ones? I've seen people who had an extreme desire to get married, and it seemed healthy and good for them, and led them to good things. I've also seen people with an extreme desire to get married that wasn't so healthy. So how do you tell which one your own feelings are? Whether it's just a strong, healthy desire God has placed in you, or if it's an obsession or idol?

And if it is the second, what can you do about it?

In my experience, almost everyone desires marriage at some level. I'm single and I certainly desire marriage. I really want to get married and have a family someday and I believe I will.

However, you also need to be content where you are at. Singleness is a gift! The apostle Paul spoke highly of singleness in 1 Corinthians. You should be using your single years to pursue God and do His work.

This summer, I went on a three week mission trip to Ecuador. My family was off fishing without a phone and my phone didn't work down there and there was no free wi-fi at the hotel (actually there was, but I didn't learn this until the day we left). For all anyone knew, I could have just dropped off the edge of the world. I could pour everything into the kids on my team and the people of Ecuador and I didn't have to think about or worry about anyone at home. It was amazing.

What I don't agree with are people who aren't content where they're at. Girls who go to a Bible or Christian college just so they can get their MRS degree. I've known girls who that's the only reason they went to college! Seriously, there are lots cheaper ways to find a good husband. I'm ready for a relationship and when the right guy comes along, I'll begin a relationship and be happy and following God in that. But at the same time, I'm content where I am now and am constantly striving to be more like God and do His work right now. Being content where you are and yet at the same time keeping your eyes open for a guy (or girl) is a very fine balance.

And can this "delay" your marriage at all? What I mean is, if it is an idol to you, would God keep you single until you learned to stop idolizing it?

I don't know, I'm not God.