Wuv, Twue Wuv -- and Mawwiage!

[PrinceCor004]

I also cringed when I read that example by Mr. Harris. I *think* the example is suppose to only apply to romantic love, but as Booky and Warrior already pointed out, this doesn't really work logically.

If by "giving someone a little piece of your heart by loving them", then wouldn't that also apply to loving family, friends and God? Granted, not in a romantic sense, but if loving means you're "giving your heart away" then the above examples would naturally count.... right?

I freely admit to having problems with the whole Harris Brothers idea of relationships and romantic love, though I do believe they had the best intentions when presenting their ideas.

"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with "the best intentions"." ~ Jurassic PArk III

^ Sorry, couldn't resist...

[stardf29]

I think the point Harris is going for here is that there are some people who, after they break off from a relationship, are still holding on to something from that relationship. Thus, they enter a new relationship while part of themselves is stuck in the past. If they keep doing this, then more parts of themselves are stuck in the past and they really do only have a part of themselves to give to their spouse on their wedding day.

Now, where I disagree with Harris on this is: this is clearly not a problem with dating, or with "loving too much" and having too many past partners. It is ultimately a character issue. The person whose heart is attached to past relationships either hasn't grieved those relationships properly, or doesn't feel complete without a significant other and has attached themselves to others in that way, or various other issues. But it is ultimately a character issue. And not dating, or trying to limit love, is not in and of itself going to solve a character issue.

Now, as for whether there is a limit to love, well, of course not! Now, that said, actually forming meaningful relationships takes a certain amount of time, physical energy, emotional energy, and other material resources, and those all have limits. Those limits will vary from person to person, and our capacity in those limits can be stretched in various ways, but they do have limits. That's why, I say, it's better to have a couple of really well-developed relationships than a bunch of underdeveloped ones. (Or, it's better to have a few close friends than a lot of not-that-close friends.) But, that really is a different issue than what I think Harris was going for in that passage.

[Ithilwen]

I thought Josh Harris gave a very silly example. What makes him think we have only finite love in romantic relationships? I don't feel I have to disprove his theory, since his theory doesn't seem to have any basis. He would have to come up with some proof to back it up for me to consider believing it, or even consider discussing it.

I can see why people would want to be someone's first love, and why someone would want to save all their love for their future spouse exclusively. I think it would be sweet to be the only person my future husband had ever fallen in love with; and I might not be able to help feeling a twinge of jealousy if he had romantic entanglements with girls before me. But not because it literally took part of his love or heart away.


~Riella

[ericnovak]

First a few thoughts on I Kissed Dating Goodbye: Harris' wrote the book as a young (21yo), unmarried man. At that point and time, he really shouldn't have written a book on dating at all. The main problem with the book is that he tried cookie-cutter relationships. Ultimately he overwrote most of what he wrote in I Kissed Dating Goodbye , in his new book, Boy Meets Girl.

In Boy Meets Girl, Harris (now married), points to the fact that no relationship is the same and even the Bible doesn't give us an ultimate guide to getting married. Harris goes through great lengths to explain that if anything, he doesn't support just waiting for someone to show up to merry, but rather intentional dating specifically for the purpose of marriage. He points to What the Bible does show us - how to have godly relationships.

-Eric

[Ithilwen]

Here's a new topic for everyone.

When the time comes when a person is of age, and feels ready to start searching for a spouse, how should they go about doing this? Especially if there is no one currently in their life that they would consider marrying?

What places should they go to meet a spouse? Church is one option I can think of right now. But what happens if they can't find their "significant other" at church? Or anywhere else?

What should a person do if all the people they meet aren't the right one?

And finally, when it comes to finding your future spouse, how much counts on you going out there and finding them, and how much counts on God bringing them to you?


~Riella

[mm1991]

I would say just go out and keep living your life. Tell people you are searching - family, friends, everyone. Be open and willing to give guys a chance.

Although, I don't believe in soul mates. I think God made it so that there are plenty of people that each person could end up happily marrying. It's up to us to choose who we marry (and stick to that one!). I don't believe the right person will come into your life "no matter what". You have to be doing something, not just sitting around waiting.

[Ithilwen]

Although, I don't believe in soul mates. I think God made it so that there are plenty of people that each person could end up happily marrying. It's up to us to choose who we marry (and stick to that one!). I don't believe the right person will come into your life "no matter what". You have to be doing something, not just sitting around waiting.

I've always believed in soul mates. I've always had a strong belief that God is completely in charge of every aspect of our lives. And that's a very big aspect.

And there are some people who can't go out and search because they don't have the means. Yet I've seen God bring their spouse to them.

My mother didn't go out and search at all. She, by "chance", kept running into this one guy over and over at different places. He had been brought by certain circumstances from Myanmar on the other side of the world to where she lived in the heart of the US. Of course, he turned out to be my father.

I was wondering, why do some people believe God picks out our spouse, and some people believe He doesn't? Because I've met people who also were very firm in the "God is in control of everything" belief, and yet, they didn't believe God was the one to pick your spouse... Why is that the one thing people tend to say God doesn't choose?


~Riella

[mm1991]

Ithilwen, that is a very cute story about your parents!

I still stand by what I say though. I am definitely a "free will" person - the future is not set in stone. It's our choices that shape our future, not destiny.

I'm wondering, what do you mean by some people "don't have the means" to go out and search?

[Ithilwen]

I still stand by what I say though. I am definitely a "free will" person - the future is not set in stone. It's our choices that shape our future, not destiny.

I don't believe in "destiny"; at least in the sense of it being a force. But I do believe in predestination. So that's probably why we disagree on this issue.

I'm wondering, what do you mean by some people "don't have the means" to go out and search?

I mean this (starting with the second paragraph).


~Riella

[IloveFauns]

I think it is by chance that you find the right people. I do agree there is more then 1 person that someone can be happily married to. Like when your first husband/wife passes away when you are young.

My friend always seems to attack not very desirable guys. Her first boyfriend was nice enough but there interested differed a lot. Her second was horrible, I didn't like him about all, he smoked...... her 3rd one (current one) is alright but not suited to her. She has had 2 other people ask her out and one had worn the same shirt without washing it all year.

[stardf29]

When the time comes when a person is of age, and feels ready to start searching for a spouse, how should they go about doing this? Especially if there is no one currently in their life that they would consider marrying?

What places should they go to meet a spouse? Church is one option I can think of right now. But what happens if they can't find their "significant other" at church? Or anywhere else?

There are tons of options besides church. Tons. Go to the mall, the store, or any establishment where people visit, and meet people there. Ask friends to give referrals, or to invite you to parties. Or, hold a party and have friends bring friends they know. Or join up at some other kind of gathering of people. Really, anywhere there are people of the opposite gender, go there.

And if that doesn't work that well, then, well... (and I know this is going to shock some of you, but...)

...join a dating service!

Seriously, it's not a place for desperate losers! Plenty of really good people who need help finding other really good people have found them in reputable dating services (online and off-line). It is not an inferior option; it is a very good one that really helps many people, especially in this day and age.

What should a person do if all the people they meet aren't the right one?

Now, this is a trickier question. Presuming that one is looking everywhere, if no one met is the "right one", then... maybe the problem is with the looker. Maybe the looker needs to not be looking for a certain "type" and be open to meeting people outside of that type. Maybe the looker is too perfectionistic in his/her expectations and needs to remember that ultimately, no one is perfect and marriage is going to be between two imperfect people.

In this sort of case, it's important to have a team of trusted friends backing you, so that they can, in loving truth, tell you if you are messing things up yourself.

I should also mention, for the Christians here, that while we should ultimately marry Christians, a completely casual "date" (or get-together), with no plans for any sort of commitment but only to get to know another person, can be done with non-Christians. Make it clear to them that you are only looking to be committed to those who share your faith and let them know why, but beyond that, just enjoy the time as friends.

And besides, you can't always know if someone is a Christian until you actually meet and/or get to know them. So while going to the local 7-Eleven to meet people might not sound all that appealing because "how am I supposed to find Christians there?", how do you know that there aren't Christians that go there, one of whom might just be your future spouse, until you go there and meet people?

And finally, when it comes to finding your future spouse, how much counts on you going out there and finding them, and how much counts on God bringing them to you?

One thing's for sure: if you believe it's 100% "God bringing them to you" and that you don't have to ever go out the door of your house because God will bring him to your doorstep, then... well, I hope you don't mind marrying the FedEx man!

It's both, for sure. God wants us to do our part in finding a spouse; He never called any of us to laziness. At the same time, He is in relationship with us, and if we are doing our part, He will do his part. If we are obeying God faithfully, even if there were some missteps along the way, we can still be sure that the spouse we find is the one He has brought along.

I was wondering, why do some people believe God picks out our spouse, and some people believe He doesn't? Because I've met people who also were very firm in the "God is in control of everything" belief, and yet, they didn't believe God was the one to pick your spouse... Why is that the one thing people tend to say God doesn't choose?

You know, sometimes some people have the whole "I believe God has one person out there He has chosen for me to marry" and others have the whole "There are many people I could marry and be happy with", and while they seem like opposite beliefs, they can ultimately end up in the same pitfall, once their marriages start to deteriorate.

The person who believes that God has chosen the one to marry starts to wonder if they had chosen wrongly, and gets tempted into unfaithfulness that way.
The person who believes there are many other possible choices starts to wonder if someone else is one of those "other people", and gets tempted into unfaithfulness that way.

There are other potential problems with the "It is all in God's control" and "It is all in my control" camps. With the latter, you can easily fall into pride over your "choice"; with the former, you can easily be tempted into laziness.

Do I believe in "soul mates", or that there is only one person I'm supposed to marry? I'd say so... because once I'm married, there sure isn't going to be anybody else! Now, I have to allow for cases if my spouse were to die or be unfaithful, such that I am able to remarry... and in those cases, I would probably have a different "soul mate", and perhaps one that would not have been in the picture before the first marriage. But the same principle applies: once I'm married, there's only that one person!

This video clip also has a good perspective on this issue.

[Ithilwen]

There are tons of options besides church. Tons. Go to the mall, the store, or any establishment where people visit, and meet people there. Ask friends to give referrals, or to invite you to parties. Or, hold a party and have friends bring friends they know. Or join up at some other kind of gathering of people. Really, anywhere there are people of the opposite gender, go there.

One thing's for sure: if you believe it's 100% "God bringing them to you" and that you don't have to ever go out the door of your house because God will bring him to your doorstep, then... well, I hope you don't mind marrying the FedEx man! It's both, for sure. God wants us to do our part in finding a spouse; He never called any of us to laziness. At the same time, He is in relationship with us, and if we are doing our part, He will do his part. If we are obeying God faithfully, even if there were some missteps along the way, we can still be sure that the spouse we find is the one He has brought along.

I guess this is the point that is really bothering me lately. Because of this, like I told mm1991. What happens if you're not going out and looking; not out of laziness, but because you really can't?

What should a person do if all the people they meet aren't the right one?

Now, this is a trickier question. Presuming that one is looking everywhere, if no one met is the "right one", then... maybe the problem is with the looker. Maybe the looker needs to not be looking for a certain "type" and be open to meeting people outside of that type. Maybe the looker is too perfectionistic in his/her expectations and needs to remember that ultimately, no one is perfect and marriage is going to be between two imperfect people.

Oh, I wasn't talking about a case where the person is expecting too much, or is just being picky. I mean a case where they truly can't find the right person. Where all the people they know are genuinely not suited to be with them, and are just friends, have different plans for life, different beliefs, etc. Just basically aren't the "one".

This video clip also has a good perspective on this issue.

Sorry, the video wouldn't work on my computer.

I think the question of whether or not you believe in soul mates hinges a lot on your views concerning God's Providence. Such as whether you lean more toward free will or toward predestination. The predestination believers (like me) tend to believe God is very much controlling even the tiniest aspect of our lives, whereas the "free-willes" tend to believe more in our choices shaping the future.


~Riella

[stardf29]

I guess this is the point that is really bothering me lately. Because of this, like I told mm1991. What happens if you're not going out and looking; not out of laziness, but because you really can't?

Well, from what I've read of your latest updates, it seems in your particular case, your family is taking steps to get to a safer place where you can meet people. I'd say you're doing something to resolve your situation.

And really, for the vast majority of people, finding dates means doing something about the current situation. Your situation would have to be extreme for you to truly be unable to look for someone (maybe your entire body is paralyzed so that you can't even speak?). Meanwhile, anyone else must do what they can in their situation, including getting out of it if that is possible. And if you are doing whatever you can, you can most certainly trust God with the rest.

We do whatever we can, and trust God with the rest. It doesn't mean we trust God with stuff we should be doing ourselves, nor does it mean we should try doing it all on our own.

I mean a case where they truly can't find the right person. Where all the people they know are genuinely not suited to be with them, and are just friends, have different plans for life, different beliefs, etc. Just basically aren't the "one".

In most cases where someone is complaining that no one they find is potentially compatible, something's wrong with the person complaining. Fact of the matter is, we cannot blame our external circumstances for our problems. Not being able to find the right person is ultimately not a problem of circumstance: it is a problem of the heart.

Proverbs 4:23 says, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life." We don't guard our hearts (from broken thinking patterns, particularly) for any old reason; we do it because that will be how life is produced. When our hearts are shaped in the right ways, our very lives will be changed.

Now, what sort of heart issues could someone who complains about not being able to find the right person need to address? Well, aside from my previous example about being too picky or expecting too much...

Maybe this person just isn't looking hard enough. There are still new people out there to meet, but he gives up too soon, when he should be sticking with it.

Maybe this person needs to move somewhere else, to meet new people. Then, he needs to get over whatever is holding him to wherever he currently is. If his current location is where God truly wants him to be, then, well...

Maybe this person's fear or pride or whatever is keeping him from looking into other sources of finding mates. Like I said, join a dating service! Maybe there really isn't someone that fits you in your little community, but there certainly has to be someone out there on the Internet! And good, reputable dating services will help you find them safely.

There has to be something one can do. Blaming things on external circumstances never gets anyone anywhere in life.

I think the question of whether or not you believe in soul mates hinges a lot on your views concerning God's Providence. Such as whether you lean more toward free will or toward predestination. The predestination believers (like me) tend to believe God is very much controlling even the tiniest aspect of our lives, whereas the "free-willes" tend to believe more in our choices shaping the future.

It seems clear to me, though, that regardless of one's beliefs, we can agree that it's neither one extreme nor the other.

What's more important than what we believe, though, is how our beliefs are dictating our lives. Someone who believes God isn't in control of this part of their life at all could end up being overly controlling on his own end, and thus end up as a controlling husband once married. Someone who believes God will control everything and thus she herself doesn't need to do anything will likely just stay single for all her life as no guy ever comes into her life (until God decides to let her marry the FedEx man).

And whether someone believes in a soul mate or not, both could use their belief as an excuse for a divorce, either because "I must have picked wrong" or "why do I have to stay with this person? There are other fish in the sea."

So ultimately, you have to ask yourself the question, "How are my beliefs dictating my actions?" Figure out what the potential pitfalls of your beliefs are, and guard your heart against them. And if those actions dictated by your beliefs aren't going to lead you to good places, maybe it's time to change your beliefs.

[Ithilwen]

In most cases where someone is complaining that no one they find is potentially compatible, something's wrong with the person complaining. Fact of the matter is, we cannot blame our external circumstances for our problems. Not being able to find the right person is ultimately not a problem of circumstance: it is a problem of the heart.

Another possibility I thought of is that it just isn't the right time yet. A person might feel they're ready to marry, but it might not be God's time for them to get married yet. Maybe there are still experiences they must have, or spiritual growth to go through before they're ready. Or maybe their spouse needs to go through some things first. Or perhaps the situation just isn't ripe yet due to living locations, financial situations of one or both people, etc. Maybe they'll meet their spouse later in life.

What's more important than what we believe, though, is how our beliefs are dictating our lives. Someone who believes God isn't in control of this part of their life at all could end up being overly controlling on his own end, and thus end up as a controlling husband once married. Someone who believes God will control everything and thus she herself doesn't need to do anything will likely just stay single for all her life as no guy ever comes into her life (until God decides to let her marry the FedEx man). And whether someone believes in a soul mate or not, both could use their belief as an excuse for a divorce, either because "I must have picked wrong" or "why do I have to stay with this person? There are other fish in the sea."

With this subject, I was thinking more about the theological aspects behind the beliefs, rather than the mindsets and actions that could potentially be produced by them. I definitely don't believe in divorce (except in cases of adultery and abusive relationships), so no matter which belief I hold, divorce is something I'm definitely going to guard my heart against (as well as any other dangerous, sinful thought I'm aware of).

And if those actions dictated by your beliefs aren't going to lead you to good places, maybe it's time to change your beliefs.

Unless, of course, those beliefs are something written in the Bible. I want to believe whatever is true; whatever the Bible supports. If the beliefs taught to me by scripture somehow lead me into sin, then it's my heart that is at fault and should change; not my beliefs.


~Riella

[stardf29]

Another possibility I thought of is that it just isn't the right time yet. A person might feel they're ready to marry, but it might not be God's time for them to get married yet. Maybe there are still experiences they must have, or spiritual growth to go through before they're ready. Or maybe their spouse needs to go through some things first. Or perhaps the situation just isn't ripe yet due to living locations, financial situations of one or both people, etc. Maybe they'll meet their spouse later in life.

Yes, there is that possibility that the looker needs to go through some growth first. Spiritual growth should never be put on hold for dating in the first place, though.

The situation is not "ripe", though? I already said, we cannot blame external circumstances for things in life. If the situation is not ripe, then do something to help ripen it!

And you seem to be speaking more as though someone has already "found" someone else, but things aren't ready for the relationship to progress. I was talking more of someone who complains about not finding anyone in the first place, which was what I had assumed you meant earlier...

With this subject, I was thinking more about the theological aspects behind the beliefs, rather than the mindsets and actions that could potentially be produced by them.

If you ask me, ferreting out the theological aspects behind the beliefs really aren't going to be of any help if those beliefs don't produce action. Otherwise, they're just going to be words typed up and posted onto a forum. If you want the theological aspect behind the beliefs, probably the most important aspect is that following God's way and aligning our thinking patterns with His Word will bring life and produce good fruit. So theological aspects are inseparable from the actions the beliefs produce.

It's good that you are guarding your heart against possible pitfalls from your belief. That is what I was going for: keeping the good that is supposed to come from your belief and rejecting that which Satan will try to twist your belief into. Remember, the other pitfall of "Pre-desties" is that they can use their belief of God's control to justify being lazy. If you're guarded against that, then things should be pretty good for you.

And for the record, with my statement on changing beliefs if the actions provided aren't good, what I was talking about are those beliefs we hold that are not truly Scripturally-based, are creating bad or no fruit, and need to be changed.

[Ithilwen]

Spiritual growth should never be put on hold for dating in the first place, though.

I don't mean they were putting it on hold in any way. I just mean God might want to shape the person in some way before introducing them to their future spouse. Maybe getting them ready spiritually and emotionally for the relationship.

The situation is not "ripe", though? I already said, we cannot blame external circumstances for things in life. If the situation is not ripe, then do something to help ripen it!

I think we might be thinking of two different things. Let me tell an example to help specify the sort of things I'm talking about. I'll use my parents as the example. My dad moved to the midwest, where my mom lived, they met and got married. Before that time, my dad was living in Burma. Now, let's say my mom, while my dad is still in Burma, goes out looking for a spouse, and finds that for some reason she just can't seem to find the right guy. That's because my dad, the guy God wants her to marry, hasn't moved there yet, but will soon. Once he does, she'll meet him and they'll get married. That's what I meant by the situation being "ripe". Sometimes, a certain situation has to line up before it happens. (And by the way, I am not saying that, because of this, we should just sit at home because the time might not be ripe yet. Obviously, we don't know if the time is ripe yet or not, and so we should do what we can, when we can. I just mean that if we are already doing all we can, and nothing is happening, it might be because it's not in God's timing yet.) And sometimes, it's not something we can help ripen -- my mom obviously couldn't make my dad move to the US faster; she didn't even know who he was or that he was in Burma. But that, of course, depends on the situation since there are things we can help ripen, as well.

And you seem to be speaking more as though someone has already "found" someone else, but things aren't ready for the relationship to progress. I was talking more of someone who complains about not finding anyone in the first place, which was what I had assumed you meant earlier...

No, I was talking about a person who hasn't found anyone yet. Sorry if I made it sound like the opposite. XD

If you ask me, ferreting out the theological aspects behind the beliefs really aren't going to be of any help if those beliefs don't produce action. Otherwise, they're just going to be words typed up and posted onto a forum. If you want the theological aspect behind the beliefs, probably the most important aspect is that following God's way and aligning our thinking patterns with His Word will bring life and produce good fruit. So theological aspects are inseparable from the actions the beliefs produce.

I'm not saying that the actions produced aren't important. See, right now I'm doing a Bible study; looking at different subjects and seeing what the Bible says about them. I'm still going through the Bible for the first time, in order to see what it says. That's why I say my focus is on the theological aspects. I'm not at all saying I'm not going to apply it to my own life -- of course I'm going to do that (and am doing that already). I'm just saying that, in context of conversation and study and debate with other people, my focus at the moment is more "What does the Bible say about this? Let's find out."

And for the record, with my statement on changing beliefs if the actions provided aren't good, what I was talking about are those beliefs we hold that are not truly Scripturally-based, are creating bad or no fruit, and need to be changed.

I thought that was probably what you meant, but I just had to make sure.


~Riella