Wuv, Twue Wuv -- and Mawwiage!

[EtJ]

Eric! I'm really, really happy for you and your fiancee! God's blessings on the next few months of planning!

[johobbit]

And we are really excited for you too, Eric! That is such wonderful news.

You described relationship very well. It is indeeed hard work, but oh so worth it! Such an adventure. Especially when God is at the centre.

[Nioniel]

So I have emerged from the very depths of lurkerdom (which is where one does not even lurk at all) to come to attempt to find some wise words and advice. I have been "talking" to a boy for quite some time now and when I came home for the summer from university in another city we decided to make things official and are now dating... as in we are now close friends evaluating each other for the possibility of marriage

So! My question is regarding physical contact. My dad has recently banned my boyfriend and I from any and all physical contact except for a parting "gentle embrace", because it's Biblical It's not even that big of a deal. I can deal with my boyfriend and I not being ever allowed to touch wile dating, but it is the rebellious part of me that dislikes submitting to my father's authority. He says that physical contact between men and women is inappropriate except in the case of marriage relationships and engagement because it is a covenantal relationship, whereas a dating relationship can easily be broken off if things are not working out. It makes a lot of sense, and he is very Biblically backed up, but I hate it. I like being able to touch people to show them I care and I know my boyfriend is working really hard to respect my dad's rule. I personally think that acts of affection are fine within a dating relationship. Acts of desire are not fine. The way I read it in one article is to compare it with a father's love for his daughter - he holds her hand and puts his arm around her and snuggles her just to show that he cares for her and loves her, not for any sexual enjoyment. I think that we should be allowed to touch in a way that we would be okay touching our respective siblings. If he would be okay with putting his arm around his sister to show her he cares about her without it being something sexual, then by all means he should be allowed to put his arm around me. I touch my close friends and my siblings all the time to show affection and think that I should be allowed to do the same with my boyfriend, and he to me, so long as the physical touch is limited to acts of affection and restricted when it comes to acts of desire. Obviously where the line is drawn is a matter of opinion, but I think there should be guidelines rather than just a strict zero contact policy. And I do not think that my opinion is un-Biblical. My dad has told me to "come at him" about this So basically I would appreciate educated, Biblical opinions on this subject and if anyone can help me intelligently (and by intelligently I mean Biblically with a focus on a covenental perspective) argue my case with my dad so that my boyfriend and I can hold hands without sinning, that would be super

[ericnovak]

Nioniel,

I have two thoughts on this subject, but neither is going to be a biblical case that you can bring in front of your dad to simply debate with him and change his mind, though I would be interested in reading the verses where physical contact is actually prohibited by scripture.

No physical contact doesn't change your heart. If there is physical attraction in this relationship, then you two will be strongly drawn together. You will always have the potential to sin, regardless of if you're holding hands or not. The fact is that you will desire each other. Applying a rule that controls your physical body but doesn't connect to your heart, does nothing to solve the problem: We're sinful people who need Jesus.

That said, faith without works is dead, and so as a personal conviction, it's a good idea to establish boundaries that you won't step over with your boyfriend, and mutually agree on them.

In my relationship, I naively assumed that I wouldn't struggle with sexual purity (I never had before), so my fiancee and I didn't establish many physical boundaries. This ended up being a pretty big mistake for us and we struggled with purity because of it. I wish I had been a little more proactive in establishing boundaries that we both agreed on when we first started dating.

[starkat]

Congratulations eric!!

Nionel, I can't offer any Bible verses, but I do agree with eric. Being in my early 30s and single, I've watched many friends get married. All of them that made it down the aisle are ones who put a limit on their physical contact prior to marriage. They spent much time praying about it together and in advance of their relationships and set the boundaries with their parents and with each other.

Three of them had their first kiss at the alter. One of them, her first kiss was upon him asking the question and the second was at the alter. All four of them are still happily married.

So the main thing I would suggest, is pray about it. Have your boyfriend pray about it. Go to both sets of your parents and pray about it. If your dad still feels strongly about it, then respect his wishes. But try coming back with a prayer plan and find something that works for y'all as a family and find those boundaries together. By setting those boundaries, you get to learn a lot more about each other and can come to respect each other in ways you may not see now.

Try and find a way that you can show your dad that you respect his wishes and at the same time you can figure out where the line is for you that you and your boyfriend.

[AslansChild]

Congratulations ericnovak! Praying for you and the future Mrs. E. Novak, hope every things going okay getting ready!

Hi Nioniel, I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to share my little thoughts on the subject that might be able to help you out.

He says that physical contact between men and women is inappropriate except in the case of marriage relationships and engagement because it is a covenantal relationship, whereas a dating relationship can easily be broken off if things are not working out.

True. But to me, an engagement is also shaky ground. It's a time period were you're "together" in the world's point of view, but not God's. You haven't been joined at the soul, by God, before God.

Also, the way I've looked at it is that the whole topic of "How much is too much?" can seem like a hard one, but it really isn't. We can say that the Bible doesn't give specifics on the dating or engagement period. But what we do know is that He said multiple times that:

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” *

He's also told us to stay away from the temptation to sin. And while we are to treat each other as brothers & sisters in the Lord, courting/dating/engaged or otherwise, I think that that was meant in the spiritual sense. Physically speaking, he/she is not your brother/sister. So you love and encourage each other in the Lord like you would a sibling.

But even if you're 100% correct, I think you're main question to ask is are you willing to submit to your fathers authority, even if you don't agree? It may be biblically correct to hold hands, but if the Lord doesn't want you specifically to do it, it's a sin. And if you get married at some point in your life, you'll have to submit to your husband too...so it's good practice!


* http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

- AC

[DamselJillPole]

Wow I had no idea that holding hands and hugging your partner were considered sins before marriage.

I'm sorry Nioniel, I just don't know how to give that kind of advice when one of my own friends is going through that same experience with her mother except my friend seems to have it very worse than your situation. The only piece of advice that I really can give is that if you both really do end up caring about each other then you should both try and explain some understandings with him. And in my honest opinion if you're old enough to go away for university and you are independent, not living under your parents roof or supervision anymore then you are an adult and can make your own decisions even if they end up becoming mistakes. We're only human and here on earth to learn from our mistakes and trials before moving on.


I'm still pure and I have kissed, hugged, held hands on some dates and boyfriends that I've had however if it didn't work out sure I was gloomy for a day or two and by the third day I was over it. I guess it's because I'm in no rush to find someone to really settle for life with. So instead I'm loving the experience so far and now that I'm single and I look back on it all I finally know what to look for in a guy for whenever I do decide to get married, however my biggest priority is to begin into my chosen career before I ever get involved with marriage.

If I said anything offending I sincerely did not mean to.

[Ithilwen]

I personally think that acts of affection are fine within a dating relationship. Acts of desire are not fine. The way I read it in one article is to compare it with a father's love for his daughter - he holds her hand and puts his arm around her and snuggles her just to show that he cares for her and loves her, not for any sexual enjoyment. I think that we should be allowed to touch in a way that we would be okay touching our respective siblings. If he would be okay with putting his arm around his sister to show her he cares about her without it being something sexual, then by all means he should be allowed to put his arm around me. I touch my close friends and my siblings all the time to show affection and think that I should be allowed to do the same with my boyfriend, and he to me, so long as the physical touch is limited to acts of affection and restricted when it comes to acts of desire. Obviously where the line is drawn is a matter of opinion, but I think there should be guidelines rather than just a strict zero contact policy. And I do not think that my opinion is un-Biblical.

I don't think your opinion is un-Biblical either. In fact, I think your opinion is more Biblical than your father's.

A lot of people believe in this no-contact policy. It usually stems from a frustration that so many couples are having sex outside of marriage, and so they end up setting rules that go too far the other way. Over-compensating is a very common human weakness. Although, I think people also buy into this idea because of a very un-Biblical mindset that seems to have, unfortunately, invaded most of today's Christian culture. And that is the mindset where the steps taken to avoid sin become an end in themselves. Let me give you three scriptures and two examples.

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything.

“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.

First example. Let's say there's a movie that has violence and bad language in it. Maybe it's rated R. Maybe it's getting really bad reviews on all the Christian review sites. Maybe tons of Christians are saying not to watch it "because it has violence and language; violence and language are bad, therefore we as Christians should not watch it". However, they are mistaken in their thinking. Seeing violence and language is not a sin in itself. Rather, committing violence or bad language is a sin; thinking violent thoughts or inwardly cursing is a sin. It is not what goes into us; it is what comes out of us. So the question would not be “Does this movie contain bad content?” The question would be “Will the content in this movie cause me personally to sin? Will this movie serve as a temptation -- not to Christians or to people in general -- but to me, personally?” There are people in this world who become more violent and swear more if they watch movies that contain such content. They should avoid such movies, since those movies serve as a temptation for them. There are also people who don’t become more violent or swear more after watching those movies. It is absolutely fine for these people to watch those movies, because those movies do not serve as a temptation for them.

Second example. Let’s say there’s a G-rated movie. It doesn’t have any bad content. Maybe it’s even a Christian movie with great morals. Let’s say it’s getting awesome reviews from every Christian review sites, and Christians everywhere are saying you just have to see it. But let’s say a girl watches it (we’ll call her Jane). And there’s this character on the movie that really aggravates Jane. This character is so incredibly whiny and annoying, just seeing this character’s face or hearing this character’s voice frustrates Jane to no end. Maybe this character reminds Jane of horrible people she used to know. Or maybe this character just hits all of Jane’s pet peeves. Whatever the case, Jane is in a bad mood every time she watches this movie, and starts fantasizing about strangling this character or anyone who reminds her of this character. This content-free movies is making Jane more violent, therefore this G-rated movie serves as a temptation for her, and she should avoid watching it in the future.

It is not a thing or action in itself that is a sin, but rather how it affects us spiritually. All things are lawful for us -- but we must ask, are they serving as a good thing or a bad thing to us personally? This is the standard we should really go by when trying to make Biblical decisions. The problem with blanket statements, pre-made policies and guidelines, formulas, and step-by-step guides on how to maintain a Godly relationship or pure heart -- they’re all rubbish. There is no formula or “right way” of doing things, including dating or setting up boundaries. Because everyone’s temptation comes in a different form.

These one-size-fit-all rules are harmful in two different ways. 1. They can stop you from enjoying Godly gifts that are personally fine for you to partake in (it sounds like this is the one you may be currently experiencing), and 2. They can ignore potential areas of temptation an individual might have (this is what Jane probably would experience with that movie. Since it’s rated G and has no bad content, most people would tell her it’s fine to watch it. No one would guess the temptation she experiences from it. And if she was told that avoiding “bad content” was the only goal in choosing movies, she might follow their advice, and continue watching a movie that is causing her to sin).

The correct way to do it is, not to buy into pre-made formulas, but rather to get to know your own heart, try to recognize your own temptations and be honest about them, pray about it, have your boyfriend do the same with himself, and then set boundaries together. If hugging him like a brother isn't a temptation for either of you, then it's fine for you to do it. However, if hugging him like a brother ends up making either of you think of the other lustfully, or if it makes it easier for you to cave in to sexual desire, then it should be avoided. Also consider that, even if you touch someone like you would a sibling, you don't think of him as a sibling, and so the touch might end up feeling... different than you expected. Our psychology and sexual thoughts/feelings are very closely tied.

No other human can see into your heart and truthfully tell you what is tempting to you or spiritually bad for you. This is one of the main reasons why I've always personally believed dating is best done after one becomes an adult. When one is under age, we are still under the authority of our parents and their rules -- and our parents may not understand our strong points or our points of temptation. And that can lead to problems. Looking at your profile, it lists you as being 19. That would be considered an adult where I live, but some other states/provinces don't consider you an adult until you're 21. If you're "of age" where you live, then you can respectfully disagree with your father, assuring him you love him and appreciate his input, but still make a decision different than the one he advised you to make. It isn't disobedience to not follow your parent's rules if you are an adult. However, if you are still underage, you will have to obey his rules until you become an adult. In that case, it would be very wise to remind him that the true goal is to avoid things that personally tempt you, not avoid things that Christian culture has deemed temptation.

That being said, if you want to, for whatever reason, prove your standpoint to your father, you may want to approach it from the other direction first. The Bible says not to lust, and it says not to have sex before marriage, but that's really all it says. Things like kissing before marriage, hugging before marriage, holding hands before marriage, etc. aren't talked about in the Bible. Therefore, you won't find a scripture that says they're okay to do, but you also won't find one that says they're not okay to do. I have to admit that when you said your father is "very Biblically backed up", I raised my eyebrow a bit. I have never seen a person Biblically "prove" this sort of viewpoint without taking scripture majorly out of context and misapplying it. If your father is misinterpreting the Bible, (respectfully) finding the flaws in his theology might be a vital step to take in order for him to objectively listen to your points.

I can deal with my boyfriend and I not being ever allowed to touch wile dating, but it is the rebellious part of me that dislikes submitting to my father's authority.

I can't see into your heart, but I wouldn't be so quick to call yourself rebellious. Rebellion usually indicates a disregard for morality in favor of wanting to follow one's own desires. There is a difference between this and simply disagreeing with your father on a theological point. Both of you are flawed human beings, both of you can get the Bible wrong. There will be times when your father will be wrong about what the Bible says, and disagreeing with him when that happens is not rebellious. Especially considering that agreeing with the Bible is much more important than agreeing with your father. As I said, I can't see into your heart. But you certainly haven't shown a rebellious spirit here. You have thought about the situation rationally, explained your opinion clearly, gone to Christians (instead of the world) for advice, and asked specifically for godly, Biblical answers. That doesn't sound like rebellion or disregard for God's rules to me.


~Riella

[MoonlightDancer]

My question is regarding physical contact. My dad has recently banned my boyfriend and I from any and all physical contact except for a parting "gentle embrace", because it's Biblical

Nioniel, if you're old enough to be away from home going to a university, I'm having trouble understanding how your father thinks it's appropriate to lay down these types of absolute laws. My advice is to disregard everything he says and calmly explain that you are an adult capable of making your own decisions.

The best course of action is to move in with your boyfriend so that you don't have to follow your dad's rules.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Ithilwen, excellent post, mate. So well written. Extra-biblical rules are another form of legalism.

Nioniel, run from temptation (or don't put yourself in those situations to begin with), have godly boundaries (through strength in Christ) and establish them early. For everything else, you can only wish to honour God with your choices, so do what you can in that respect. That should be the real motivation not what many tend to say: If I'm in a relationship, how much can I get away with sexually, without it being sex?

Moonlight, now I know you're trolling. It's not wise to 'disregard everything he says' but to take into account everything he says and respectfully explain that 'you are an adult capable of making your own decisions'.
Also, don't tell a Christian to move in with her boyfriend, that's just stupid and immoral.

[DamselJillPole]

I will agree that that was beautifully said all the way through Ithilwen.

While I do agree with you too Warrior I wouldn't go too far with calling Moonlight a troll, for one it's not that nice and it's coming from her opinion.

Couples who are dating I agree should not get a place together for themselves, I would consider a same sex roommate to help with incomes to become independent without having to live along with your parents rules or get a unit that you can afford on your own.

In my opinion it's better to move in with a partner depending on your commitment like: Say this guy is planning to propose to his long time girlfriend of 5 years and they are both planning to get an apartment or a house together I find that morally acceptable. At least it is acceptable in my religion.

My cousin has been dating his girlfriend since high school and for years now and they have a house where they live together now and he is going to propose to her.

[PrinceCor004]

MOD NOTE

Please remember to refrain from delving into "controversial" topics (living together, etc.) as they are unconditionally banned on this forum.

Thanks,

~ Moderator Team of SO

[Nioniel]

Thank you all for your posts! I've enjoyed reading them all. I've been really aching to discuss this issue with people that either won't entirely oppose my dad's views or entirely agree with him

That said, faith without works is dead, and so as a personal conviction, it's a good idea to establish boundaries that you won't step over with your boyfriend, and mutually agree on them.

Try and find a way that you can show your dad that you respect his wishes and at the same time you can figure out where the line is for you that you and your boyfriend.

See, here's the thing. We know where the line is. We did decide on boundaries immediately. They were pretty good, conservative, careful boundaries too, in my professional have-been-reading-Christian-dating-books-for-years opinion Then two weeks into our official relationship my dad was like, so by the way you guys aren't allowed to touch AT ALL. Which is a little bit ridiculous, because we'd been sitting pretty cozy with each other for quite a while by that time. We are both committed to having a pure relationship and respecting our boundaries to ensure that, but my dad has gone from us having reasonable boundaries to having no boundaries at all, as in, the boundary has nothing in it. By having a complete no-touching approach we are ideally avoiding all situations that might cause us to fall into temptation. So says my dad.

ericnovak, my dad's opinion stems from these verses (and many years of life experience and he is basically the person most familiar with the Bible that I know)

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.

Honestly, I agree with my dad so much now. It took about a week of research and lectures and talks but I agree with him. I just don't like what I am agreeing with It makes a lot of sense for a dating couple to refrain from touching until they are engaged/married. When dating, there is a very low level of commitment. You may be committed, but you still have the freedom to break it off if you can't see marriage working out in the future. Before marriage (or engagement, when you've each made a promise to marry the other), youthful passions should be fled from so as to avoid any hint of sexual immorality. Why place yourself in a situation or give yourself the physical freedom to stir up youthful lusts? My dad's views make SO much sense. Only problem is, he thinks holding hands and the like is stirring up youthful lusts, whereas I don't think so. Kissing I can understand. That seems more sexual in nature and more the sort of thing that would lead to making out/stirring up youthful lusts than simply innocently holding hands. So for this reason I wouldn't want to kiss my boyfriend. Also I think the idea is a little terrifying anyways

To those who told me that I am an adult and should tell my dad that I should be able to make my own decisions... that is a very feminist, modern view Biblically, I am under my dad's authority until I get married at which point my authority is my husband... I personally think my dad should be understanding of the fact that I am older now and live away from home for most of the year but that is not up to me to decide. He is pretty good about that actually, it is just this one instance of him exercising his authority that gives me trouble.

Also consider that, even if you touch someone like you would a sibling, you don't think of him as a sibling, and so the touch might end up feeling... different than you expected.

This is very true. Because we are dating and attracted to each other, physical touch is different than with my close friends or siblings. However, my "acts of physical affections vs acts of physical desire" argument that's really the only argument I have going for me.

I read in one article to consider each act of physical affection within a family setting. If you would be okay doing it with your sibling without it being weird for you sexually, then it is okay for you to do with your girlfriend/boyfriend while dating. I've given this example to my dad, and he was trying to tell me that while I might sit close to a close female friend and would want to do the same with my boyfriend (because I like him in a far different way) I wouldn't do the same with a guy friend that I don't like romantically. This is true, but I wouldn't because I'm not comfortable with my guy friends like that - I don't even think it's appropriate for me to foster close friendships with guys in the same way a girl might foster close friendships with girls. So of course I wouldn't sit close with a guy friend because I'm not comfortable with them in that way, but since I am working on a close friendship with my boyfriend, I am naturally more comfortable with him because he's the closest guy friend I've ever had so far. I'm not even sure where I'm going with this anymore, perhaps I'm just trying to get my thoughts out there Does this all make sense?

Side note: My boyfriend in his previous relationship had issues with boundaries. I realize the question regarding physical contact is not "how far is too far" but rather more like, "How can I honour my boyfriend and keep our relationship pure and holy?". So, in this instance, would severely limiting physical contact be honouring him since it has been a problem for him in the past? He's told me that he wants to do things right with me, but he's also said that he's having a hard time keeping his hands off me since my dad made this rule. It makes me kind of conflicted. Do I fight for us to be allowed to have some amount of physical contact or do I just let this slide and go along with none at all? Which is more honouring to him and will help him more? I really don't know, AND, I like holding his hand and the like and I'm fighting for this for me as well, and I'm already struggling enough with the initial idea of him having a lack of boundaries in that relationship. Life is complicated.

[Ithilwen]

To those who told me that I am an adult and should tell my dad that I should be able to make my own decisions... that is a very feminist, modern view Biblically, I am under my dad's authority until I get married at which point my authority is my husband.

Just wanted to address this real quick. While I agree with many of the classic Feminism causes from long ago (i.e. that women should have the right to vote), I disagree with modern feminism almost entirely. Feminism happens to be one of my pet peeves. If I believed the Bible supported the idea of women being under their father's authority until marriage, I would certainly be following it, and no modern ideas or changes in culture would change my views. I take scripture very seriously. I just wanted to make that clear, if anyone misunderstood my post.

Other than that, I'm not sure what advice to give you, Nioniel. I'm really glad you and your boyfriend set up boundaries beforehand. That shows a responsibility not very many couples have. And I am sorry you're having frustrations with your dad. I hope my post helped you in some way when it comes to ideas of conversations you can have with him. Regardless, I will pray for you and your family that all goes well.


~Riella

[IloveFauns]

I am a person you could say dabbles in feminism, I believe in equal rights but I think once your 18(or what ever it is in your country) you are legally and should be able to do what you like. Saying that I don't really have a controlling father. Mum made more of the choices about what we can and cannot do. Now mum makes suggestions of what I shouldn't do but she wouldn't really stop me. I have grown up in a atheist/agnostic family however so it is a very different lifestyle to most on here. On most issues me and dad and mum see eye to eye spare a few issues.

[wolfloversk]

Nioniel, I've been pondering the same sort of thing myself as of late Also been struggling with that phase of I'm starting to become more independent, but parents haven't fully let go yet. Honestly, I haven't come to a conclusion about where those boundaries are, but I would like to bring up a few points stemming from your comments regarding the parent/child aspect...

First off while I agree with Ithilwen it may not necessarily be rebellion, I would suggest you ask yourself if the reason you dislike this rule so much is in fact rebellious in nature... Do you want to disobey because you are at that stage where you're trying to get more independence? Basically, I think it is worth considering why you dislike this... If it is simply Biblical based then that is no big deal (comparatively speaking ), but if it is in rebellion... that raises some red flags to me. The Lord calls on us to honor our father and mother, to obey them. I know it's frustrating to be going through that stage when entering into a new phase of independence in your life... I'm going through it myself... but you must be wary of disrespecting your parents... this in itself is a sin. Now this does not mean it's wrong to disagree with them at all... as Ithy pointed out they to are human, and you may be right some of the time. But you should not disrespect them, and disobey them in frustration because they aren't giving you your independence... for that in itself is unbiblical. It may feel like he is being stubborn and refuses to compromise, but you MUST talk with him about it... If you are uncomfortable with it, try discussing it with him and don't let yourself get frustrated... but ask him questions. Let him know that you are not comfortable with this rule... but first ask yourself why... it may have nothing to do with contact at all, but rather the nature in which the rule was imposed... I'd ask your Dad to talk about it... I'd keep asking him to talk about it... not necessarily to lift regulations, but so you two can come to an understanding between yourselves... try to understand where he's coming from... if you think it's flawed point out why and ask him to please listen to you make your case then when you are finished ask him to point out what h disagrees with... Above all ask him to pray with you that you can come to an agreement God is happy with and that you all are comfortable with. But I would use this as an opportunity to get to know your father better and to show that you are mature enough to handle a disagreement, and that you respect him