"High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

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"High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby awake-love-think-speak » Dec 25, 2010 2:31 pm

(If this is already posted elsewhere, I apologize – I checked and didn’t see anything, but perhaps I missed it)

I was bothered that Edmund was declared by Caspian (in a now-British accent as opposed to his previous Spanish one) to be the High King of Narnia, because even though Peter wasn’t in Narnia, that doesn’t mean that his powers as High King were lost, or transferred to Edmund (remember “always a king or queen of Narnia”?)

Then, in spite of being given that title, Caspian was declared to have more power than Edmund, which would not make sense if he were really High King – and frankly, with his status as a King of Old, I think Edmund should have had more power than Caspian anyway, even if he weren’t High King.

To make matters worse, Edmund went off, in the cave where they found the gold pool, about how he hated having less power than Caspian and Peter. I know that this place was one of temptation and such, and there was a similar conversation in the book, but adding greed for gold on top of it, and exaggerating the argument to more than I remember it being in the book, without any form of making up or apology, just was over the top for me.

Overall, I felt that the movie was a bit dramatized, and “Hollywood-ized”, to be more appealing to the audience, but it would have been just fine without it. (Need I remind everyone of what was done to Peter in PC?) There were other things that were different from the book than the movie, ie., Edmund and Caspian both thinking Lilliandil beautiful, Caspian making no real move on Lilliandil that could be seen (after Suspian).

There were also some good changes. I’m sure most of these have already been discussed, and if they have, again, I apologize. So, what do you think were the GOOD changes that they made from the book to the movie, and what were the BAD changes?
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby moo25 » Dec 25, 2010 3:42 pm

I think that Caspian was just referring to Lucy and Edmund as the Kings and Queens of Old when he said that; but the wording was still very incorrect.

Oooh, I HATED it when Caspian was declared to have more power than Edmund, especially by Drinian, in a completely disrespectful way. I mean, he's still a King for goodness sake! If I remember right, in the book they're treated as equals.

The whole less power thing- I agree, I really didn't like that either. That was a complete addition to the film from the book, and really didn't stay true to Edmund's redeemed character I don't think. I remember thinking it was really awkward when Edmund and Caspian didn't apologise openly to each other...it was a bit strange.

I did like how they fleshed out Lucy's character arc a bit and went into more depth with the "I'm not beautiful" thing- that's realistic for a girl her age, and they didn't go off on some ridiculous subplot, like her only wanting to be beautiful for the attentions of male characters.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby georgiefan1 » Dec 25, 2010 8:33 pm

When I first heard Caspian say "HIGH Kings and Queens" I was really upset. Edmund had a whole conversation with Miraz in PC baout how only Peter was high king so that whole conversation was just thrown out of the window.

I again was upset when it was said the Caspian has more power than Edmund, thats is just unfair I do believe that Edmund has a higher power than Caspian, it wasnt fair to him

with Edmund being all crazed about power in the deathwater scene(Skandar's acting was amazing in this scene BTW, his eyes were so transforming and he was really into it) it was like in PC he was all supporting his brother who was overshadowed him that making all mad about this with Caspain just messed up everything he achieved in PC
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby Bookwyrm » Dec 26, 2010 12:24 am

You can't have more than one High King. It doesn't work like that. It defies the very definition of the term. And if there were any High Queens, Susan would have been the High Queen and not Lucy and there certainly wouldn't have been multiple High Queens for the same reason you can't have multiple High Kings ruling at the same time. Still more evidence that these screenwriters either don't know what they're doing or they're content with producing sloppy work.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby Ithilwen » Dec 26, 2010 12:39 am

I think they probably said High King and Queen, because the filmmakers just weren't paying enough attention to the book.

There were a lot of things about VDT I greatly disliked. If I made a list of all the changes from the book they made that I thought were a bad idea, I would probably end up posting most of the movie. It was just a poor adaption, in my opinion.

I thought they made Edmund way too childish. Declaring he's a king after they won't let him into the army, sticking his tongue out at his uncle, and having a hissy fit in front of Caspian because he doesn't feel he has enough power... It was all just too silly. :((

I didn't like at all what they did with Lucy -- bringing out that one small part about beauty from the book and just letting it consume her character. It didn't seem realistic to me, considering that she was always the one closest to Aslan and should, therefore, feel the most secure. What's worse was the sort of dream or vision she had where she had "wished herself away". All Lucy said was that she wanted to look prettier, like Susan. Not that she wanted to be Susan, and have herself disappear. /:) I know lots of siblings that look like eachother. That doesn't mean they are eachother. So if all Lucy wanted was to look more like Susan (which was what she was indicating), then technically, if her wish came true, that wouldn't have turned her into Susan, or made it so that Lucy didn't exist at all, or made it so that she had never discovered Narnia, etc.


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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby flambeau » Dec 26, 2010 3:18 pm

moo25 wrote:I remember thinking it was really awkward when Edmund and Caspian didn't apologise openly to each other...it was a bit strange.

That's not the first time that has happened in the Narnia series. Remember that Peter and Caspian never openly apologize to one another in PC, and also that Edmund never openly apologizes to his siblings in LWW (and if anyone needed to apologize openly to someone, it would be LWW Edmund. He does so in the book, but it is unfortunately not shown in the film.). It seems that the movie makers have not realized the value of having something like that happen on screen, as well as the importance some viewers place on it, and so they tend to leave it more ambiguous and have the characters just 'make up' without apologizing and verbally admitting that they were in the wrong.

But back on topic...

The "High King" comment didn't bother me greatly. It's not a 'major error' in my book, so I just tend to overlook it.

Ithilwen wrote:All Lucy said was that she wanted to look prettier, like Susan. Not that she wanted to be Susan, and have herself disappear. /:) I know lots of siblings that look like eachother. That doesn't mean they are eachother. So if all Lucy wanted was to look more like Susan (which was what she was indicating), then technically, if her wish came true, that wouldn't have turned her into Susan, or made it so that Lucy didn't exist at all, or made it so that she had never discovered Narnia, etc.

She may not have actually stated that she wanted to be Susan, but (and just bear with me for a minute) if you read into it enough you can find the implications there... possibly even ones that Lucy did not know were there. Remember that she is reaching the stage where she is wanting to attract male attention... like Susan. She is wanting to be beautiful... like Susan. She makes what could almost be deemed an experimental attempt to see if Caspian (Susan's former admirer) will notice her... like Susan. This is more than just wanting to look like her 'beautiful older sister'; she is wanting a piece of Susan's world for her own, and only after experiencing what that could be like does she realize that it is something she does not want.
Also, remember that the spell says "Make me she, whom I'd agree, holds more beauty over me." Let's note that again: "MAKE me she", not "Make me beautiful like she". So, even if she did not realize it at the time, the spell itself is designed to make you into that other person, even if that is not exactly what you wanted to happen.
...Sorry for the ramble. ;)) I hope all of that makes sense.

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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby Lucy of Narnia » Dec 26, 2010 3:28 pm

Wow good point flambeau! Make me she...now you're bringing the movie back to me! =))

Anyway...I thought Edmund's character was a bit messed up...he's turning into Frodo! When we saw that scene (before the movie, it was online) my sister and I were like...ok...And if you think about it, they really regressed his character (I'm getting that from someone else, and I agree wholeheartedly!). Wow, Riella...the sticking out the tongue thing...and "I licked every single one of them." Though that was funny! Hm...did they regress his character because he was going mad w/ living w/ Eustace??

Anyway, Fro- I mean, Edmund overreacted about the gold.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby awake-love-think-speak » Dec 26, 2010 4:19 pm

Good thoughts, all! :-bd

I thought that was an interesting bit in the movie where we got to see Lucy as Susan, because it gave us some good cameos of WillMo and Anna, but I also liked the fact that Aslan reminded Lucy of how she was the one who had found Narnia, and brought her back to the importance of her faith and love for Narnia in the first place. Even though the whole beauty thing may have been way exaggerated, I thought it would have been good to include in the movie - albeit less dramatically - to show Lucy growing up.

Speaking of that, I thought the whole reason that the Pevensies had to leave Narnia and not come back was because they had grown up too much and had learned all that they could from Narnia. But it seems to me, with the way the characters are portrayed in the movie, that they still have a LOT to learn. In fact, they were all much better behaved at the end of LWW than PC or VODT. (Especially Peter and Edmund.) So by that logic, they never would have had to come back to Narnia if they'd already learned all they could from it.

But then, I've always hated the fact that they could never come back (til they got into Aslan's country) whether it's in the book or the movie, so I guess that point is kind of irrelevant.

Anyway. Some good changes to the movie, to be on a more positive note! :D I liked seeing how mature Lucy was when it came to Gael. At first the inclusion of Gael/Gael's mother/green mist/seven swords annoyed me, but ultimately, I think it helped deepen the movie to more than just a high seas sailing, swashbuckling adventure. The other relationship I loved was that of Eustace and Reepicheep, which, according to my memory, was deeper and more tender by the end of it than it was in the book. Eustace's crying when they said goodbye touched me. AND Caspian saying that they were like family to him! <3 Not to mention the Jill Pole reference.

So I guess what I'm saying is, overall the movie had a lot of bad changes, but I think they sort of made up for it at the end! And no matter what, I'm glad I saw the movie.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby MoonlightDancer » Dec 26, 2010 4:49 pm

I didn't really understand why Eustace was crying. :-o In my opinion that just made it even cheesier. :p

If I made a list of all the changes from the book they made that I thought were a bad idea, I would probably end up posting most of the movie.

=)) I'm right there with you. When I sat down to write my review I thought, "Now to make a list of everything I didn't like," and then I gave up after naming two or three of the main things, because I'm too lazy to go through the whole movie!

The main changes I didn't like

1. Green MiSt-- :| NO explanation.
2. Lucy's "you wished yourself away" scene. (?!) I was just like...what...the...heck was that?!
3. Coriakin's speech...it was just embarrassing watch, it was so horrible. =))
4. The line "I'm TIRED of playing second fiddle!" Edmund! I didn't even know you played the fiddle! =))
5. Eustace wasn't really a brat, I found him humorous and endearing. How could you honestly hate someone like that? Seriously, just give the kid the orange. He needs his vitamin C!

I felt as if Caspian telling Edmund he was like a brother (or however it went) was out of place because throughout the whole film I felt animosity between them and never really found a place where it was resolved.

I guess not all of these were "changes" necessarily-just additions. I gave up on the filmmakers making a good adaptation but I guess I just expected a good movie. And it certainly wasn't a good movie, but I did laugh a LOT at it's cheesiness, horrible script, and "what the heck," moments. :p
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby Aravis Narnia » Dec 26, 2010 5:30 pm

Eustace was bratty enough for my brother to want him out and to make him dislike the movie. Otherwise, he had no major complaints about it.

I think that by High King and High Queen he simply meant they were the Kings and Queens of the Golden Age. Didn't pay it much thought.

Edmund has grown-up moments- such as his wanting to enlist in order to help his country- and childish moments- such as his sticking his tongue out. He is a teenage boy. He has one foot in childhood and another one climbing into adulthood. Completely understandable.

Lucy is also now a young teenager. It is normal for girls that age to want to be pretty- per se and to attract other people and to be popular and have other benefits. At least she does not throw herself at Caspian or any other specific boys. Still a bit young to give her a specific love interest.

I do wish that Caspian and Lilliandil had been shown together at the end of the movie. Guess we will have to wait till SC to see this happen. But at least Caspian is shown having interest in a specific woman again.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby aslanscountry » Dec 26, 2010 5:58 pm

awake-love-think-speak wrote:To make matters worse, Edmund went off, in the cave where they found the gold pool, about how he hated having less power than Caspian and Peter. I know that this place was one of temptation and such, and there was a similar conversation in the book, but adding greed for gold on top of it, and exaggerating the argument to more than I remember it being in the book, without any form of making up or apology, just was over the top for me.
Maybe it's just me, but there're lots of ways in which you can make up for mistakes other than saying "sorry". Right after the confrontation, when Ed is about to look for Eustace, Caspian tells him he'll go with him in an apologetic sort of way. Then there's the brotherhood conversation before the battle, and when Caspian delivers his speech Ed looks all proud and everything. Guys are usually embarrassed to say "sorry" out loud...they're more comfortable saying it with action :P

I know that there're lots of scenes that could've been improved, but there're also a couple of things which I prefer more than the book. I was previously worried about Caspian not throwing a tantrum and getting rebuked by Aslan, but it turns out I like the change better. For one, Caspian is much older than in the book, so it won't make sense if he throws a tantrum. Plus, God always lets us make our choices, be it good or bad, and I think Aslan giving Caspian a choice in the movie shows that He gives men free will and that He knows before Caspian even decides that he'll make the right choice. So yeah, I like the movie scene better than the book.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby aragorn2 » Dec 26, 2010 6:00 pm

There are 2 ways of looking at this line.
1 is the book purist way, saying that Peter was the only high king and calling anyone else that is blasphemy.
The other way of looking at it is from the perspective of Caspian and his men, These are the ancient sovreigns who ruled during Narnia's golden age and have returned out of the deep past to aid them, of course they are the "High Kings and Queens".
As for myself I'm not sure how I feel about it, since Peter was the only true High King. But I can see what Caspian was meaning.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby Ithilwen » Dec 26, 2010 6:18 pm

flambeau wrote:She may not have actually stated that she wanted to be Susan, but (and just bear with me for a minute) if you read into it enough you can find the implications there... possibly even ones that Lucy did not know were there. Remember that she is reaching the stage where she is wanting to attract male attention... like Susan. She is wanting to be beautiful... like Susan. She makes what could almost be deemed an experimental attempt to see if Caspian (Susan's former admirer) will notice her... like Susan. This is more than just wanting to look like her 'beautiful older sister'; she is wanting a piece of Susan's world for her own, and only after experiencing what that could be like does she realize that it is something she does not want.
Also, remember that the spell says "Make me she, whom I'd agree, holds more beauty over me." Let's note that again: "MAKE me she", not "Make me beautiful like she". So, even if she did not realize it at the time, the spell itself is designed to make you into that other person, even if that is not exactly what you wanted to happen.


Thanks, Flambeau! :) it makes a lot of sense when you explain it.

I'm still not a fan of that part in the movie, though. Because, although it makes sense after someone explains it, it shouldn't need further explanation. A movie should be able to stand on its own, and shouldn't need the viewers to try to figure it out to have it make sense to them. I thought a lot of the parts in the movie, actually, were much too vague. :(


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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby ~DaughterOfEve~ » Dec 26, 2010 6:58 pm

I've thought a lot about that but Edmund is High King compared to Caspian in a way because he is a King of "Old" (if that makes sense). I just see High King as a term to define who is the "older King". But when Dirian told Edmund that Caspian was the King and the one in charge, that was when Caspian should have stepped in a defended him and he didn't. I caught that in my second viewing and was disappointed with that.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby aslanscountry » Dec 26, 2010 7:07 pm

But when Dirian told Edmund that Caspian was the King and the one in charge, that was when Caspian should have stepped in a defended him and he didn't. I caught that in my second viewing and was disappointed with that.
I didn't think too much into that scene but after you pointed it out I kinda compared it with the first time Caspian wants to give Ed the Rhindon and after Ed refuses he puts it back to its place without another word. To me the scenes look like he respects Ed as precedessor but he also doesn't mind being the boss. But after their Goldwater conflict, just before the battle, Caspian again insists that Ed takes Peter's sword, and this time he really means it. And he also gives Ed the honor to kill the sea serpent. I don't mind these little additions/changes/whatever...I think it just makes the characters look more realistic, though prolly in different way than shown in the book.
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Re: "High King Edmund" (and other notes of interest)

Postby Valiant » Dec 26, 2010 7:51 pm

I didn't like Dirian telling Edmund he's not in charge. I think Ed and Caspian though of each other as equals (except at Goldwater, but that's the whole point there.) It would have been better to not have the scene in there. :ymsigh:

The High King and Queen drove me a little 8-} simply because it looks like the script writers didn't know their source material. x_x Its an error that should not have been there. Period. Exclamation mark!*

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