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Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

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Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

Postby PhelanVelvel » Oct 17, 2014 7:26 pm

I haven't posted in a while and I want to help keep the forum active, so I thought I'd bring up this idea I had the other day while listening to the Focus on the Family dramatisation of The Last Battle.

I was surprised that the Narnians at the time of The Last Battle would be so eager to believe in Aslan that they would accept Aslan's actions even if they were evil and cruel. The talking horses allow themselves to be enslaved by the Calormenes for hard labour. The water rat whom Tirian and Jewel meet on the river has accepted the felling of the dryads because it's "the Lion's orders". If you want to say that the talking beasts are too naive, good-natured, and willing to question something they've been told is coming from Aslan's mouth, what about Tirian and Jewel? It's plain that they are discerning individuals, yet they give themselves up freely to the Calormenes and "the justice of Aslan" without ever getting sure confirmation that Aslan has arrived. What if Tirian had come home to Cair Paravel one day and all his courtiers told him that Aslan had been there and commanded that Tirian give up Narnia to the Tisroc? According to his actions in The Last Battle, I almost think that he would have believed them.

Tirian, who is supposed to be Narnia's protector, surrenders his freedom all because he has been told that Aslan has ordered these dreadful things. Why not ask first whether it isn't a scheme or a lie? I understand that they were upset at having killed unarmed men, but to throw away their freedom for it without first thinking rationally? You can't tell me that Tirian doesn't know how to think under pressure. As a king, that's one of this responsibilities, and he certainly does so later in the novel. Wouldn't it have been better to sooner guess that one of the Calormenes was lying about Aslan's coming in order to get one over on the Narnians? Some kind of Narnian Occam's Razor would have been in order. What's more likely: the benevolent Aslan has come and sold his people into slavery, or the Calormenes are lying and scheming in order to enslave the Narnians?

Roonwit warned Tirian that the stars did not foretell Aslan's coming. Tirian had evidence from a reputable source (as centaurs are always depicted as being wise and having privileged information), but he sooner trusted rumours from talking beasts. I mean, Roonwit even tells him explicitly: "The stars never lie, but Men and Beasts do." Tirian and Jewel got the best warning they could have hoped for, but they did not heed it. I know that there were some sceptics in the crowd on Stable Hill, namely the boar and the lamb, but the talking beasts as a whole were far too gullible. If more of them had taken a critical eye to the situation when it first arose, they would have marched past Shift to greet Aslan and found Puzzle instead. I understand that it would have been a frightening situation to defy Shift, but why believe that Aslan had come and would only speak through Shift? Given all they know about Aslan from the stories, what would they sooner believe? Does it make more sense to think that one of the talking beasts is an evil liar, or that Aslan is an evil tyrant?

I realise that Tirian calls Shift out on his lies, but it shouldn't have taken that long. Tirian only felt the need to dissent when Shift explained that Aslan and Tash were the same person. Tirian should have been questioning things from the moment he was told that Aslan ordered the felling of the dryads and the slavery of the talking beasts. Aslan might not be a tame lion, but I think Tirian and Jewel know better than to think Aslan would randomly turn his back on his people when he did not turn his back on even the worst traitor in history (Edmund). Tirian knows his history; he even knows about Digory and Polly. There is no precedent for Aslan behaving like a tyrant, tame lion or not.

Yes, several people did tell him that they had seen Aslan with their own eyes, but I'm not inclined to believe that aliens have landed nearby just because five people tell me they have. Nor would I be inclined to believe that an ivory-billed woodpecker had been spotted if five people told me it had. I would be hopeful and inquisitive, but there is no way I would bet my life on it.

In all the stories, we see that people and animals alike, as long as they are pure of heart, are invariably drawn to Aslan. If they truly believed that Aslan was there waiting for them, why wouldn't they have rushed to meet him? Is this magnetism a supernatural power of sorts that is only present when Aslan is physically about? If so, I find that rather weak. I thought the whole point was that followers of Aslan wanted to seek him out on their own. I find it hard to believe, after seeing the way Hwin rushes to Aslan, declaring she'd rather be eaten by him than fed by anyone else, that none of those beasts would have rushed at him during the bonfire if they truly believed it was him. And if they had, they would have seen it was only Puzzle. The Calormenes may have slain some of them, but there would have been survivors and the secret would be out.
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Re: Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

Postby King_Erlian » Oct 24, 2014 1:50 am

This is something that's always bothered me a bit about "The Last Battle" too. For one thing, the Narnians didn't "worship" Aslan the way we worship Jesus. How they saw Aslan isn't totally clear, but I think they regarded him as a king and a protector of the land and its people rather than a god (or God). So if something claiming to be Aslan started ordering Narnians into slavery and Dryads to be murdered, the most likely response would be either to say "This is not Aslan" or to rise up against this "Aslan", not to blindly obey him as a god whose will couldn't be questioned. After all, the Old Narnians in Miraz's time didn't simply shrug and say, "Well, he's the King of Narnia, and a true Son of Adam, so we've just got to accept it."
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Re: Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

Postby PhelanVelvel » Nov 01, 2014 9:45 pm

King_Erlian wrote:This is something that's always bothered me a bit about "The Last Battle" too. For one thing, the Narnians didn't "worship" Aslan the way we worship Jesus. How they saw Aslan isn't totally clear, but I think they regarded him as a king and a protector of the land and its people rather than a god (or God). So if something claiming to be Aslan started ordering Narnians into slavery and Dryads to be murdered, the most likely response would be either to say "This is not Aslan" or to rise up against this "Aslan", not to blindly obey him as a god whose will couldn't be questioned. After all, the Old Narnians in Miraz's time didn't simply shrug and say, "Well, he's the King of Narnia, and a true Son of Adam, so we've just got to accept it."


Yeah, I find it pretty frustrating that Narnia would end that way when its citizens seemed much less gullible during other trying times in history. I assume that Narnia ended only because Aslan wanted it to. It doesn't make a lot of sense that their entire world would cease to be just because the Calormenes had taken over Narnia. There were people/animals/other creatures living happily outside of Narnia and it's not necessarily true that the Calormenes would have been able to take it all over. It would have taken them a good long time to reach the Eastern Islands. I often wonder why Aslan felt it was time to end that world. I'm fine with it being Aslan's decision, but I don't like the implication that the entire world ended just because the Calormenes invaded one part of it.

Aslan didn't end Charn until the last living being (Jadis) had left it. I like that notion of when a world truly ends: when there is nothing left alive to behold it. Ending the entire world because Narnia was invaded would be like ending Earth when Poland was invaded during WWII. Seems sort of hasty, doesn't it? Of course Aslan would know better than I would, seeing as he reigns over all the worlds and must have a code to follow, but I do wish we got to know more about it.
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Re: Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Nov 02, 2014 12:26 am

But the fact is, what is eternity? A minute can last for an age, whilst a week can pass in the twinkling of an eye. "Time, like an ever flowing stream, bears all its sons away. They fly forgotten as a dream, dies at the opening day". . Our perception of time isn't mere measurement. It often depends on what we hope for, and also what we dread.

It is fair enough to say that if Tirian had been less gullible, then maybe Narnia could have been saved. He should have listened more to Roonwit and been less hasty. But perhaps Narnia was already doomed. Even the dwarves were "sucked in" by the Calormenes and the false Aslan, insofar as they ended up being unable to believe anything at all, even in their rescue from their guards, and that Tirian was genuine. The scepticism of the dwarves resulted in their opposing not only Tirian but also the Calormenes, who were much stronger. Their scepticism ended in their inability to acknowledge any other reality than the one they found themselves in, and in the end, they fought amongst themselves, suspicious of unequal treatment.

According to Last Battle, all present in the stable were dead to Narnia. They weren't in that reality any more. Just as King Caspian, when he died in SC, could no longer go back to Narnia. When Tirian looked through the keyhole, he saw the Calormenes discussing whether or not to go inside the stable and try to find Rishda Tarkaan. Or to simply burn down the stable, just as was originally intended. Some of the animals may well have still been alive when Tirian passed that door, such as Jewel, the unicorn, or even Puzzle the donkey. We don't know how survivors of the battle fared under the Calormenes, though Rishda Tarkaan was quite frank about what was intended for them. Or how long the Calormenes continued to rule Narnia. We only know from the book that within the time the dead were still technically present behind the stable door, Aslan decided to call it Time, gentlemen, please.

King Erlian wrote:Ending the entire world because Narnia was invaded would be like ending Earth when Poland was invaded during WWII. Seems sort of hasty, doesn't it? Of course Aslan would know better than I would, seeing as he reigns over all the worlds and must have a code to follow, but I do wish we got to know more about it.


It may seem hasty to you. But there was a good reason why our Earth should not have ended when Poland was invaded during WWII. For one thing, in its long history, Poland has been invaded many times, by Tatars, Teutonic Knights, Swedish forces, and finally, it was partitioned between Russia, Prussia and Austria by 1791, remaining a non-existent country to its conquerors, until the end of WW1.

Poland has also risen again and again during its history. Poland and Lithuania formed a strong Commonwealth, having defeated the Teutonic Knights at the Battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg) in 1410. In what was the largest cavalry charge in history, it was Polish Hussars under their own king, Jan III Sobieski, who relieved the 1683 Ottoman Turks' siege of Vienna, much as Narnian forces relieved Anvard in HHB, or King Théoden's Riders of Rohan relieved Minas Tirith. WW1 resulted in Poland winning its independence, until WW2. And even after WW2 it still remained a separate country. Today, Poland is still an independent country.

Though if the Nazis had won WWII, discovered the Atom Bomb first, and continued on to the sort of world domination the Nazis had in mind for everyone who disagreed with them, I'd be horrified to know what would have happened. The point about Poland is that however desperate their plight was in 1939, it was not the final end of all hope. Their enemies were defeated, sooner or later.

Getting back to Narnia, whether it lasted for only a short time or for a dreary long time, there was no longer any hope for it at all. Hence it was better to destroy it sooner than later, I'd prefer to think. All the magic had gone out of it. There was only a dreary reality with nothing to look forward to. No snow dances, no music or laughter. Just servitude, and cruelty. Tash owned the place, not Aslan any longer, it seemed. So that reality had to finish, sooner rather than later. And Tash means "stone" in Turkish.

I wonder how long Jadis remained in her "sleep", after having reduced her world to stone and rocks. She was just lucky that Digory and Polly happened by before Time gave that world its coup de grace.
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Re: Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Nov 02, 2014 12:35 pm

As I go back and read the chapters in question, I'm a little frustrated with the "he's not a tame lion" thing.

Aslan has ordered the murdering of the dryads and selling of the trees to the Calormenes? Well, we don't know; he's not a tame lion. He's decreed the brutal enslavement of the Talking Horses? Again, we don't know; he's not a tame lion, so we really can't make a judgment on what he might or mightn't do. Yikes. The "not a tame lion" line of thinking seems like it may be an awfully slippery slope. :-o

The strangest thing is that Tirian believes that these things could conceivably be true, but he becomes so sure that the "whole thing must be a cheat" when Shift claims that Aslan and Tash are one in the same. I don't really understand why every other dreadful thing can be potentially placed under the "he's not a tame lion" umbrella, but Tash and Aslan being the same entity absolutely cannot.

I guess it's possible that Tirian witnessed one of the human sacrifices when he went to Tashbaan as a teenager and was struck by the appalling barbarity of it, but he also witnessed the murder of the dryad and the savage beating of the Talking Horse. All three of those events plainly appear to be the work of evil, so why does only one of them prove that Shift is lying? :-? I feel like this is a riddle or something. :P

EDIT...

PhelanVelvel wrote:I thought the whole point was that followers of Aslan wanted to seek him out on their own.


I don't think it's a one-sided thing... for instance, in The Silver Chair, Aslan tells Jill that "you would not have been calling to me if I had not been calling to you." The pull ultimately comes from Aslan, and that's why Hwin reacts so fearlessly when she meets him, I think.
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Re: Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

Postby PhelanVelvel » Nov 04, 2014 10:08 pm

I'm just curious why Aslan decided that NOW was the time when there was no more hope for Narnia. Things were pretty dark and dismal in the times of the White Witch and Miraz. There were still good people and creatures in Archenland, the parts of Narnia the Calormenes hadn't yet reached, and the Eastern Islands. The only thing different this time was that the friends of Narnia died, and they usually were the ones to step in and help in Narnia's darkest hours. Then again, when Calormene threatened to invade Archenland, the only help it got from the friends of Narnia was Shasta getting information from the council in Tashbaan and Lucy in the battle. The information was crucial, but it didn't involve the Pevensies stepping in to save the day. It was really down to Shasta, Aravis, Bree, and Hwin to save Archenland, and they did it. Surely with Aslan's help the remaining good people of that world could have done something to at least resist the Calormene rule. There may have been good Calormenes like Emeth to recruit as well. I know the series had to end at some point, but logistically I have to wonder why THIS was the point of no return.

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:The "not a tame lion" line of thinking seems like it may be an awfully slippery slope. :-o


I agree. I've never been okay with how easily Jewel and Tirian accept "Aslan's" actions. They don't even know it's actually Aslan. Overall I like The Last Battle, but it relies on the idea that the king of Narnia would at no point have asked "But is it really Aslan? Or is this some sort of plot?"
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Re: Could scepticism have saved Narnia?

Postby Firecycle » Mar 23, 2015 10:32 am

Besides the Calormene conquest, there were a couple events that could have served as factors:

  1. The desecration of the name of Aslan. I imagine that for many Narnians, the atrocities committed at the command of the impostor could change how they view the real Aslan forever. The dwarves even stopped believing in him altogether.
  2. The arrival of Tash. Tash had probably been active in the world of Narnia before, but, for whatever reason, stopped long enough for at least one Colormene official to stop believing in him. His coming back, and being within the borders of Narnia, could have been a factor.
  3. The real-world death of the friends of Narnia. Aslan wanted them all to be there for the end of Narnia
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