Calormen Culture Poll

[Watziznehm]

Calormen culture has kind of fascinated me. They are a stark contrast to the Nanians. If you wonder about what there culture could have been modeled after it is kind of difficult to decide. However, there are a few clues in the book that I think points very strongly to one culture. The Persians! Let's see, the Persians were renowned for their postal system; they had chariots as did most of the ancient world; and their emperors were always depicted as having a peculiar "Al Khazar" hat.

The Persians had an amazing postal system, most likely the best of the ancient world. Do you remember when Aravis was talking about the postal system of Calormen? She doesn't actually say that it was fantastic but what she described is very much like our postal system today. Believe it or not but the Persians had as a sophisticated postal system as we do today.

Persians had chariots, which cannot be said for more modern cultures like Indian and Arabian. Bree was very skeptical about charioteers and the horses they controlled. "That's not real cavalry" as he put it. The fact that the Calormens had chariots shows that they were modeled after an ancient culture as apposed to a modern one. (btw, this is a little side note but I think it would be cool to see the Calormens fighting in chariots. The Horse and His Boy maybe?)

Persian kings were illustrated with odd "Al Khazar" type hats. Yep, they were; and also with funny square beards but that is beside the point. Your chronicles may have a different illustration but in mine the Tisroc is illustrated with nothing other than a "Al Khazar" hat. Coincidence maybe? Hmmm.....

So you see, the Calormens bear a strong resemblance to the Persians. From their great postal system to their chariots to their garb. It all points to them. C.S. Lewis may or may not have intended this but whatever he intended you have to admit that there are similarities in the two cultures.

So what do y'all think? Am I out to lunch or have I hit the nail on the head? If I'm out to lunch please prove it to me. I've also put up a poll because I am interested about the general opinion on this matter and how many people actually care.

[ClvrEttinsmoorGiant]

I never thought about Persian. I always pictured Arabian but, Persian seems to work better. Maybe a Persian Arabian mix? I think it says some where that they have dark skin and dark eyes. Can't remember. But, the Perrsains might have had dark eyes and skin.

[NaiadWaker]

I do agree about the culture parallels to Persia, but I always pictured them looking more Arabian.

[TheGeneral]

Don't some of the options overlap?
Well, I'll say Babylonian just because the ancient city was powerful and most likely beautiful, kind of how I imagine Tashbaan.

[Watziznehm]

No, some of the options don't overlap. If your specifically targeting Greek vs. Roman you would be mostly correct except for one thing, the Greeks had the philosophy of every city for itself but the Romans did not. It may be a subtle difference but it deeply affects how a culture interacts with itself and with the cultures around it. I just sort of put it there as a trick question. Also, if, on the off chance, someone does pick it, I would very much like to know why they think that.

Babylonian, hmmmm.... interesting. Putting away the Calormens culture for a minute and just focusing on the city of Tashban itself I picture Tenochtitlan: the great Aztec city that Cortez conquered. It was on an Island surrounded by water just like Tashban. It was the great city of the whole empire just like Tashban. For Cortez, he was easily in but not easily out just like the Narniana in HHB. Now, the Calormen culture itself is far from the Aztec culture but I still can't help but think of their city when I think of Tashban.

[Elvenhelm]

I think Persian is the closest thing. But I actually thought about Babylonian when I was thinking about how they should portray Calormen when the movie comes around. It's just as exotic and desert-based, and I can totally see Tashbaan being portrayed like Babylon with the Ishtar gate and Hanging Gardens. Plus Babylonia has he advantage of being long extinct so nobody can cry racism.

[Watziznehm]

Nobody could cry racism about the Persians either. They are a long extinct empire too. Therefore, either one of those would work if that is the goal. However, as I have said and others, the similarities between the Persians and the Calormens is more. There is one exception though, as I have said above it is the city of Tashban itself. It should totally be like Babylon, hanging gardens and all.

[TheGeneral]

But I actually thought about Babylonian when I was thinking about how they should portray Calormen when the movie comes around. It's just as exotic and desert-based, and I can totally see Tashbaan being portrayed like Babylon with the Ishtar gate and Hanging Gardens.

Exactly. I picture it very desert-like, wealthy, rich in culture, beautiful and other-worldly, and the center of Calormen (maybe not literally the center, but certainly symbolically).
But I like the idea of Persian culture as well.

[DOECOG]

I say Calormen reminds me of Persia, Babylon, and Arabia. It’s hard to pick one of the three, but I’m always reminded of that general region when I read HHB. Also, it’s interesting that the Calormens had curve swords like the Persian shamshir.

[tenthofthatname]

I picked other...for the Ottoman Empire. They're Persianate but I never felt Calormen was anything like the Persia that went head to head with Greece. The Ottomans of the Middle Ages had that quality of overlapping cultures by necessity.

[Watziznehm]

Huh, I find these results very interesting.

tenthofthatname, what about the fact that Calormens had chariots? The Ottoman empire didn't have chariots. Also, what do you mean, "I never felt Calormen was anything like the Persia that went head to head with Greece."? What was it about them that made so different from Calormen? The way they fought, what? Actually, if it puts a new light on things, I was thinking a bit more about the Persian Empire at the time of Ester from the Bible rather than when they took on Alexander the Great.

Also, your Ottoman Empire idea has an impractical flaw whether or not it resembles the Calormens. The Ottomans were Muslims. That is a religion that still endures to this day. A religion that is very touchy about racism, especially against themselves.

[tenthofthatname]

Watziznehm, to be honest it's because I feel like the Persian Empire that fought with Greece even prior to Alexander could defeat a Narnian army, which is completely based on personal opinion. Narnia and Archenland have always felt like they were modeled after a medieval era of Western European culture to me, with dashes of the renaissance. Taking that into account, the Ottomans just seem like a good choice as contemporaries because the empire absorbed both Persian and Arabic cultural traits, and a near millenia of poetic tradition. I just think calling Calormenes Persian would, by period model, make Narnia Greco-Roman in culture. There are Greco-Roman traits to the world of Narnia, but they are not Greco-Roman by culture.

Where the Islamic element is concerned I'm not really sure how that matters? Culture doesn't necessarily equate religion, especially when the Ottomans (by principle) considered non-Muslims subjects of the empire.

ETA: Regarding the chariots, we can consider that an anachronism in terms of the world of Narnia. Narnia the country had galleons in the time of High King Peter, medieval europe and classical greece or rome did not. This just goes back to my belief that in order to define Calormen culturally we would have to investigate Narnia and Archenland too.

[Watziznehm]

Oh, I think you are wrong about the fact that if the Calormens were Persian they would be to great a match man to man against the Narnians. Contrary to popular belief medieval martial arts were pretty crazy and sophisticated. If you want proof I would be glad to direct you to some videos illustrating this point. If, on the other hand, you mean that the Persians were so numerous and therefore the Calormens would be very numerous and as a result they would overwhelm the Narnians, then you have just stated the whole point. The Calormens were very numerous and they did overwhelm the Narnians. One thing stopped them from invading Narnia, there superstitious fear of Aslan. If it wasn't for that, they would have swept down on Narnia with overwhelming Numbers and annihilated it for good. Indeed, that is what did happen in The Last Battle.

[tenthofthatname]

This is why I made a disclaimer of personal opinion; people will debate on who can destroy who in theoretical battles of history where the two forces aren't even from the same period forever. It's not something I think should be argued here, but you are entitled to believing a medieval force could take on one from antiquity. I think it's possible too depending on circumstances, but for me none of those apply to Narnia hehe. I just think the Ottomans have both Persian and Arabic elements not to mention Turkic ones that fit the Calormenes. Maybe it's better to say I feel Calormene culture is closest to post-classical antiquity Turkic culture?

[Liberty Hoffman]

I've always thought of the Calormens as being Arabic.....what with their turbens and litters they carry people around in, it just seems right!

[Aravis Narnia]

All of those except for Greek and Roman resemble Calormen quite a bit. The culture based directly the most on Greco-Roman culture would be Telmarine as portrayed by the latest PC movie.

If they want to play it safe for the HHB movie and make sure that nobody comes up with the very interesting assumption that the Calormenes are Muslims (since they are not), I honestly think they should go with Ancient Egypt. That way they can present a distinctively pagan religion of the ancient world- and I do not think any modern Kemetic practicer will object.

Babylonia/Sumeria is an interesting choice that had not really been presented before. Since these cultures predate Islam, it could work.

Persia is okay. But Zoroastrianism is monotheistic (unless you count the bad guy as being a deity equal in power to the good guy). Which may be a good thing.

India would be fine as well, though India is not really a desert while Calormen seems more desert-like.

Honestly, the filmmakers should make it close to ancient Egypt. That way it would have all the cool elements like pyramids and hyeroglyphs- while their distinctive polytheism would assure that they are NOT bashing Islam. Finally, modern Egypt is over 10% Christian and thus not the most Muslim of countries- as well as being rather progressive in some ways (perhaps due to that >10% Christian population?). So if they go with portraying Calormen to be most like ancient Egypt, it would avoid possible controversies.