The Logic of Jadis

[AstroWolfD]

Nothing in prophesy ever mentioned that they had to be blood related at all.

Correct, but my point was that not just any four kids would have sufficed. I believe that Aslan had pre-determined the four who must fulfil the prophesy, and those four were the Pevensies.

[Dernhelm_of_Rohan]

I beleive that the prophesy could not just be fulfilled by any four children, only by the Pevensies. But perhaps she wasn't sure that these were indeed the four children spoken about in the prophesy. Only if she was positive would it have made sense for her to kill Edmund right away (or at least after he had told her about his brother and two sisters), because it is stated in the book and movie that all four children were needed to reign in Cair Paravel.

Absolutely right, my friend. And to those who are saying that it could have been any four humans, think about it for a moment. There are humans to the south in Calormen and even humans who are descended from the First King and Queen in Archenland. Surely, of all people, they deserved the kingship. Why couldn't four of the them sneak into Cair Paravel and end the Witch's reign?

Because, I believe, it had to be the right humans.

Jadis recognized that Edmund was one of the four destined Kings and Queens of Narnia because he and his family fulfilled two important aspects of the prophecy:

1. There had to be four of them - two boys and two girls
2. They had to come from our world

Jadis even specifies this by talking about "a door from the world of Men".

Later, we learn that a third part of the prophecy is fulfilled. It seems pretty clear also that Aslan's presence in Narnia has to coincide with the arrival of the four children. (Mrs. Beaver says that things must be "drawing near their end, now He's come and you've come", talking to the Pevensies about Aslan)

But all of this is beside the point. I think the reason Jadis didn't just kill Edmund when she first met him is that stone people can be turned back. If only one of the four was lost, the other three would be motivated to get him back and fulfill the prophecy even more than ever. Besides, a job half done by a villain always turns out to be a job undone by the heroes. Having killed every living thing in her own world, Jadis knows this. She doesn't want a temporary battle won; she wants to win a war. And like a true military strategist, she goes for the long game.

-Dernhelm

[wolfloversk]

I think the reason Jadis didn't just kill Edmund when she first met him is that stone people can be turned back.

But she didn't have to kill him this way she could have stabbed him. Maybe it had to do with satisfying the deep magic so Narnia wouldn't "burn and drown" after all if there was no Narnia, she'd have no kingdom to rule.

[DiGoRyKiRkE]

The whole "the Pevensies were destined to be the ones to fulfill the prophecy," bit makes Jadis even more illogical for not killing Edmund on sight. If she'd've killed him, the prophecy could have NEVER been fulfilled by that logic.

[waggawerewolf27]

I doubt that Jadis was the sort of murderer that would kill on sight anyway, prophecy or no prophecy. Jadis liked to get as much information as she could about her intended victim first.

Yes, she may have seen the error of killing everyone else in her world. Nobody to clean up after her, or to use the way she normally used her minions. But some even of the people of Charn, Felinda, Bramandin and Sorlois, she did not kill directly. She did have armies and supporters who were killed by her sister's armies first. Arguably, she still killed her own supporters, by not accepting defeat at all - much the same logic we apply to Hitler, who ravaged Germany unnecessarily, even when Germany's defeat was inevitable.

Also, Jadis, considering herself a queen and an Empress, liked to kill within the law. As rightful retribution to shore up her own position, not as outright murder. That is to say, I think she liked to show that the victim deserved the fate she meted out to them. That is why she did not kill Edmund on first sight. Firstly she had to find out if he was genuinely human, secondly, she had to find out how he got into Narnia. Thirdly she had to find out if Edmund was truly alone, if he was one of the four prophesied kings and queens, and if any others had come to Narnia yet.

Having established the answers to everything she asked, she attempted to use Edmund to get the others where she could have all four of them at her mercy. But Edmund fails to do that - Peter and Susan find Lucy more credible, especially once they finally get through the Wardrobe. It also does not help that Tumnus has already fallen victim to Jadis' secret police, thanks to Edmund, himself. Nor that Edmund, going to Jadis, himself, finds out that the promises of power Jadis made to him on his first visit to Narnia were so much codswallop.

Jadis did intend to kill Edmund, who had walked into her trap. But why didn't she do that at her own castle, having sent Maugrim's wolves after the other three? By that time Edmund had given her all the legal ammunition she needed for the task. Isn't that why Digs finds Jadis illogical, for immediately setting out on that journey?

[Varnafinde]

Jadis did intend to kill Edmund, who had walked into her trap. But why didn't she do that at her own castle, having sent Maugrim's wolves after the other three?

I think we've been overlooking one thing here.
It should be done on the Stone Table - "that's where it's always been done before."

She has a right to Edmund's blood, as punishment for his treachery. And for as long as possible, she hopes to take it in the proper place.

[Glumpuddle]

If it was a simple matter of preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled, the Witch would have simply destroyed the four thrones.

Put yourself in the Witch's shoes. There is a prophecy that two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve will appear and bring an end to your reign. You find one of them. Are you really going to just kill him off and trust that the other three will do you no harm? If you kill Edmund, you will have no way of finding the other three. "If there's a wasp in the room I like to be able to see it."

Jadis did intend to kill Edmund, who had walked into her trap. But why didn't she do that at her own castle, having sent Maugrim's wolves after the other three?

"You may overtake these humans before they reach the Stone Table. You will know what to do if you find them!" --LWW, Ch. 11

The Witch did not know if the wolves would be able to prevent the children from reaching the Stone Table.

Edmund's news of Aslan (which comes as a shock to the Witch) changes everything. If not for that news, the Witch would probably have killed him right there having no further use for him. After hearing about Aslan, she likely kept Edmund, as the dwarf put it, "for bargaining with." And she was indeed able to bargain with him. She gave Edmund's life in exchange for Aslan's. If she had killed Edmund right away, she would not have been able to do that. Since she had no knowledge of the Deeper Magic, she no doubt thought her plan was working splendidly.

You know, this issue used to bother me a little, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense.

[waggawerewolf27]

I was about to answer your earlier post, before you edited it but had to answer the phone. But I didn't see any problem with the timing you mentioned below.

I have more of a problem with how contrived it feels that the Edmund is rescued seconds after the Witch makes the decision to kill him. Not the strongest plot point in the series.

Just prior to the execution scene, Peter had just slain Maugrim (Fenris Ulf) at the Stone Table camp. Maugrim's lieutenant escapes to meet the Witch and the Dwarf, who had just stopped in a dark valley further away. The Dwarf - what's his name? - says that they all would have reached the Stone Table by then and Maugrim's lieutenant confirms this. And so, having dispatched this wolf to summon her army, the Witch decides to kill Edmund on the spot. But Aslan's people, in pursuit of the wolf, find them, and rescue Edmund. Fast moving action, indeed, with many people doing different things.

This particular episode does illustrate what the Stone Table was for - for executing traitors. This is where Jadis was taking Edmund to, and having found that Aslan had got there first, she tried to preempt any rescue attempt, but failed.

But, wasn't Jadis being a bit of a traitor herself? She could have Tumnus arrested 'for fraternising with the enemy' that is to say, Lucy, as she well knew. And Jadis was within her rights for doing so as the Queen of Narnia who had concluded that the predicted 4 Kings and Queens would vanquish her and were therefore her enemy. But strictly speaking, Edmund was not Jadis' enemy when he went to the Witch's castle, even though he failed to bring his brother and sisters. As Aslan was to point out, "his offence was not against you "(Jadis, that is. LWW p. 128 Ch.13).

Isn't it a bit illogical to put to death someone who deserted your enemy in your favour? And how did she know about the Secret Hill and what was engraved on the sceptre of the Emperor over sea?

If it was a simple matter of preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled, the Witch would have simply destroyed the four thrones.

Nah! Aslan was powerful enough to keep Her Charnian Highness and her minions out of Cair Paravel altogether. If she could destroy the Four Thrones, Jadis would have taken up residence at Cair Paravel.

[Glumpuddle]

Nah! Aslan was powerful enough to keep Her Charnian Highness and her minions out of Cair Paravel altogether. If she could destroy the Four Thrones, Jadis would have taken up residence at Cair Paravel.

The Witch did not take up residence at Cair because she apparently did not want it to be the capital. Mr. Beaver says "Down at Cair Paravel—that’s the castle on the sea coast down at the mouth of this river which ought to be the capital of the whole country if all was as it should be."

Also, Aslan has not been in Narnia for a long time. "Never in my time or my father’s time" Mr. Beaver says. There's no use in saying Aslan would have stopped her from taking Cair. We can assume Aslan was also powerful enough to end her reign decades before, but for whatever reason he did not.

The main question behind this thread is "why did she wait so long to decide to kill Edmund?" My point is that the Witch's objective is not as simple as preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled. If it was, she would simply have destroyed the four thrones and called it a day. Killing Edmund and preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled would not suddenly make Aslan and the other three powerless.

The whole "the Pevensies were destined to be the ones to fulfill the prophecy," bit makes Jadis even more illogical for not killing Edmund on sight. If she'd've killed him, the prophecy could have NEVER been fulfilled by that logic.

Why are we assuming that preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled would make Aslan and the other three children powerless? The prophecy didn't say "killing one of them will mean the evil time will continue forever." It also didn't say the four people on the thrones had to be blood related.

Consider this: If the Witch had killed Edmund on sight, how would the outcome have been changed? It would have been a much easier victory for Aslan. There would have been no reason for Aslan to die. Keeping Edmund alive ultimately increased the Witch's chances of victory because it gave her something to bargain with. And this plan would have worked if not for the Deeper Magic which she had no knowledge of.

[waggawerewolf27]

The Witch did not take up residence at Cair because she apparently did not want it to be the capital. Mr. Beaver says "Down at Cair Paravel—that’s the castle on the sea coast down at the mouth of this river which ought to be the capital of the whole country if all was as it should be.".

How interesting! I'm not saying that I doubt you, just what an interesting insight and quotation that is. Did you know that when Hitler had plans of invading UK, that he planned to make Oxford the capital of England rather than London? Since C.S.Lewis was a fellow at Oxford University until 1954, and made many broadcasts for the BBC for the war effort, I'd imagine that he would have taken a very dim view of that idea. Could it be that the inspiration for Jadis comes from a non-human female caricature of Hitler?

Also, Aslan has not been in Narnia for a long time. "Never in my time or my father’s time" Mr. Beaver says. There's no use in saying Aslan would have stopped her from taking Cair. We can assume Aslan was also powerful enough to end her reign decades before, but for whatever reason he did not.

Aslan did everything in the appointed time and way, calling all times soon, according to the books. Aslan got Digory Kirke to fetch an apple from the garden at the top of the mountain where Digory also found Jadis, herself, gourmandising on one of those apples. The tree Digory planted kept Jadis away from Narnia for a long time, until it, too, died and was destroyed. Or was it? Digory gave the apple Aslan permitted him to take, to his mother, who recovered. But Digory planted the core, and the resulting tree lasted until a storm blew it down when he made a wardrobe from the wood. But couldn't the Narnian tree also be put to some use?

This is another English motif and tradition. The 950 year old throne of St Edward the Confessor, which figures in all English coronations, and still is displayed in Westminster Abbey, is made, not of gold or silver or of any precious metal, but of English oak, stripped of any golden overlay, centuries ago. I wondered how the 4 thrones of Cair Paravel were made. Is it too fanciful to think that maybe they, too, were made at least partially from the apple tree that once protected Narnia? Just wondering. And it might explain why Aslan didn't always need to visit Narnia, or Cair Paravel to protect it.

The main question behind this thread is "why did she wait so long to decide to kill Edmund?" My point is that the Witch's objective is not as simple as preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled. If it was, she would simply have destroyed the four thrones and called it a day. Killing Edmund and preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled would not suddenly make Aslan and the other three powerless.

Maybe not, but it would alter the story significantly. Quite a few times the Pevensies, and others as well, asked what would happen if they died in Narnia, would they also die in Our World as well? I suspect what you would have is a Professor with a dead body in the closet and Miss Jane Marple or Hercule Poirot being asked to investigate him in an Agatha Christie murder mystery. Besides, if Jadis kills Edmund on sight, then according to the code of ethics on the Stone Table, itself, she would be no more than a murderess, herself, and liable for the same punishment she wanted to inflict on Edmund, Empress or no Empress.

Why are we assuming that preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled would make Aslan and the other three children powerless? The prophecy didn't say "killing one of them will mean the evil time will continue forever." It also didn't say the four people on the thrones had to be blood related.

True. The only reason why the four children were related was because they were all kept together as a family when evacuated so they could stay with the Professor - Digory Kirke who owned the magical applewood wardrobe. By the way, Jack also had evacuees staying with him in Oxford.

Consider this: If the Witch had killed Edmund on sight, how would the outcome have been changed? It would have been a much easier victory for Aslan. There would have been no reason for Aslan to die. Keeping Edmund alive ultimately increased the Witch's chances of victory because it gave her something to bargain with. And this plan would have worked if not for the Deeper Magic which she had no knowledge of.

Yes, it would have been a much easier victory for Aslan. But you wouldn't have the lovely redemption story about the Deeper Magic. And whilst she was alive, yes, Jadis would have bargained to stay alive and powerful to come back a second time, not just as a shade or a nightmare, either. Instead of the Narnia tales we do have, we'd have endless stories about the struggle with the White Witch, and Tilda Swinton would make a motza of money.

[Narnian_Archer]

It says very clearly in the book that Jadis is out to get all the Pevensies. It's very clear that she wants to get them all - that's the first thing she thinks of. In my opinion, there isn't really much to speculate here - she does everything she can to get ALL the Pevensies, ALL the rebels, and when every attempt fails, only then does she resort to actually killing Edmund.

Another point is, the very fact that the Witch met a human in the forest signifies to her that her reign of power is coming to a close, and Aslan might be on his way. That means that she can't really just go zapping the human into ice, because he may have more power than she has ever known. She has to get him on her side, she has to make him do something (betray his brothers and sisters) so she can have full rights to him. Once he does, it isn't, again, just a matter of zapping him or turning him to stone - it's a whole ritual that involves a lot of details (remember how she is complaining it should be done properly at the stone table, and how carefully the dwarf is preparing him for it). It's not just a matter of "kapow, ok, he's gone, now let's get the rest"! If it were like that, Narnia would just be another senseless action novel...but it's not. There's a whole lot of mystery in there that we don't know everything about, but that we sort of understand.

[Glumpuddle]

Wagga, I think you're misunderstanding my points. I am arguing that letting Edmund live was a smart move by the Witch. It gave her a better chance of victory. If she had killed Edmund on sight, it would have meant a much easier victory for Aslan. It would not have been a dumb strategic move for the Witch.

Many fans posting here seem to believe that the Witch's primary objective is to prevent the prophecy from being fulfilled. I disagree. If her objective was that simple, she would simply have destroyed the four thrones. You responded that Aslan would have stopped her from destroying Cair Paravel, and I disagree.

[Varnafinde]

I wondered how the 4 thrones of Cair Paravel were made. Is it too fanciful to think that maybe they, too, were made at least partially from the apple tree that once protected Narnia? Just wondering. And it might explain why Aslan didn't always need to visit Narnia, or Cair Paravel to protect it.

That's an interesting idea. No details about the thrones are given, and certainly nothing about their history. But the tree was not supposed to be able to protect Narnia for longer than throughout its natural life, so I don't see that it would be for other than sentimental reasons (and the historical value).

The main question behind this thread is "why did she wait so long to decide to kill Edmund?" My point is that the Witch's objective is not as simple as preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled. If it was, she would simply have destroyed the four thrones and called it a day. Killing Edmund and preventing the prophecy from being fulfilled would not suddenly make Aslan and the other three powerless.

When Jadis is about to decide to kill Edmund, she mentions the possibility of preventing the fulfilment of the prophecy, but the dwarf says that this wouldn't make any difference when Aslan has arrived.

"Four thrones in Cair Paravel," said the Witch. "How if only three were filled? That would not fulfil the prophecy."

"What difference would that make now that He is here?" said the dwarf. He did not dare, even now, to mention the name of Aslan to his mistress.

"He may not stay long. And then - we would fall upon the three at Cair."

So they recognize that Aslan has power even without the prophecy. She won't attack them while he is still in Narnia, but wait until he has left and then attack the three remaining children.

[Ithilwen]

When Jadis is about to decide to kill Edmund, she mentions the possibility of preventing the fulfilment of the prophecy, but the dwarf says that this wouldn't make any difference when Aslan has arrived.

"Four thrones in Cair Paravel," said the Witch. "How if only three were filled? That would not fulfil the prophecy."

"What difference would that make now that He is here?" said the dwarf. He did not dare, even now, to mention the name of Aslan to his mistress.

"He may not stay long. And then - we would fall upon the three at Cair."

So they recognize that Aslan has power even without the prophecy. She won't attack them while he is still in Narnia, but wait until he has left and then attack the three remaining children.

To me, it sounds like her main focus is stopping the prophecy, and that she isn't heeding the words of her dwarf assistant well enough. Just as Satan often does in real life, Jadis underestimates Aslan and views him as only a temporary problem.


~Riella

[fantasia]

Why do cats toy with a mouse after they've caught it and before they kill it? Why did Hitler continue to invade countries before conquering the ones he was already warring with?
It's NOT logical. It's cruelty and pride. The cat COULD lose its prized mouse. Being too proud and aggressive cost Hitler the war. And I feel Lewis wrote Jadis perfectly here.
Why kill Edmund so soon? Why not let him go and run back to his siblings knowing that he'll be caught again later? And killing four human children at once is far better than killing just one.
And pride allowed Jadis to believe that she could easily do this, even if those four children escaped her grasp and made their way to Cair Paravel, her spies and wolves could easily track them down and destroy them.
It wasn't until Aslan entered the picture, (whom she truly feared) and three of the Pevensies made it to his side that she realized she had miscalculated, Aslan suddenly had the upper hand and Edmund needed to die.
No, Jadis did not act logically, but I believe Lewis wrote her very accurately as to how baddies often act.

[Glumpuddle]

^ I really don't think there's any need to explain the Witch's actions with pride. Her actions were very logical.

Why didn't the Witch kill Edmund early on? For the same reason she didn't intentionally break her own wand. It would have been foolish.

Jadis underestimates Aslan and views him as only a temporary problem.

Hmmm, what makes you say that? To me, the book indicates that news of Aslan has shaken the Witch more than anything else in the past hundred years. She freaks out when Edmund tells her Aslan is back, says she'll kill the next person who says Aslan's name, and then can't bring herself to look him in the eye. I think the Witch recognizes that Aslan is a very serious threat to her reign and perhaps her life.