Playing Cupid

[Lilygloves]

I personally am not against that sort of fan-fiction because in the examples you gave, the fan-fiction mostly focused on expanding the given story. I've read through some fan-fiction and most of it focuses on an aspect of a story and adds more to it. (Most Narnia fan fiction that I've read is about Susan after her family's death.) A lot of fan-fiction focuses on keeping continuity with the story and adds emotional meaning to the story, for example Susan's emotions as she forgets Narnia and her family is all dead. I suppose that the emotion-based fan fiction could include the romances, but most of the time does not go along with the story. For me, especially with Narnia FF, it is very important to stick to the books and not make it totally random, i.e. an Edward Cullen/Lucy romance.

[waggawerewolf27]

Erk! Lucy and Edward Cullen? How awful! Exactly what would these two characters from entirely different fantasy series, have in common, anyway, to be drawn together into someone's fan fiction? Or did the author of that fan fiction, not having read either series properly, not realise that the Twilight series, unlike Narnia, is definitely adult?

(Most Narnia fan fiction that I've read is about Susan after her family's death.) A lot of fan-fiction focuses on keeping continuity with the story and adds emotional meaning to the story, for example Susan's emotions as she forgets Narnia and her family is all dead.

Yes, Susan, definitely a dabbler in romance, herself, would be a most suitable subject for a fan fic. I wonder if that is why C.S.Lewis wrote her like that so that her fate would be open ended, not final like the others?

[DiGoRyKiRkE]

MOD NOTE: While this thread started out as a thread about various "ships," and then morphed into a discussion of fan-fiction in general, discussing ships between book series is going across the line. Please drop the conversation about a possible Lucy/Edward Cullen ship, and let's see if we can get back on topic.

DiGoRyKiRkE: Talk About Narnia Moderator.

[waggawerewolf27]

Fair enough, we were discussing various ships, most of which found at popular websites are not canon. At first there was general agreement how bad fan fiction can be, and that the over inclusion of romance spilled over into films, including PC with its Suspian romantic inclusion. Strangely, these movies could play down canonical romances, such as Caspian and Liliandil in VDT. However, 'Suspian', in the film Prince Caspian, was terminated when Susan, herself, essentially pointed out the unsuitability of a Narnian romancing someone from our world because of the different timing of each world. However, this problem didn't seem to be the reason why she was fleeing from Rabadash in book HHB, chronologically before PC. And I'm not sure why C.S.Lewis felt that Uncle Andrew's vain fascination for Jadis in MN was silly, when I couldn't help thinking that Andrew and Jadis deserved each other.

Some posters have considered some 'ships' within the Narnia series, including Digory and Polly. Contrary to belief, C.S.Lewis did include romance in each of his Narnia books, except possibly the last. However, there had to be reasons within the stories why C.S.Lewis didn't want that particular 'ship'. Was it only because he had already written Digory as single in LWW, as Varnafinde pointed out? I still think it would be also a consequence of Uncle Andrew's meddling and the quarrel in Charn.

There is a danger with fan-fiction which intrudes upon an author's copyright, and so, unlike Ithilwen, a budding author, herself, not all authors would be as flattered by readers continuing to 'play in an author's sandpit'. But does this apply to exercises set in class on a novel that is being studied, which might include alternative endings, for example? Or to original works as commentaries on other people's writings? One such example I have mentioned is Neil Gaiman's 'The Problem of Susan', a short story about a journalist who believes that the retired professor of Children's Literature she is interviewing is 'that Susan Pevensie', since the professor, as a party-going young woman, had also lost her three siblings, one of which was called 'Ed', in the same life-changing train accident in which the Seven Friends of Narnia died in LB.

Lilygloves, who confesses to having written an alternative ending to a musical, and myself, were agreeing that some fan-fiction writings were to amplify and explain novels to help the writer understand them. Unsurprisingly, most of the fan-fictions Lilygloves has seen about Susan Pevensie seem to be also supplying alternative endings to her story and go some way to conform to the Narnia canon.

These seem to resemble the Gaiman short story, in which the journalist misquotes C.S.Lewis' observations that Susan was a vain and silly young woman who might mend and get to Narnia in her own time and way. Since Susan in HHB was definitely a dabbler in 'romance', and since 'romance' is definitely part of one's emotions, it would be highly unlikely that even these fan-fictions do not include 'romance' at some level, especially when from what is said about Susan in LB has led to well-known criticisms that Susan forgot Narnia because of her post VDT discovery of 'romance'.

So I have to wonder: Why exactly did C.S.Lewis leave Susan's lifestory open-ended? And I also wonder from reading the series what it would have meant for Narnia, and for Susan, herself, if Susan had gone ahead with her betrothal to Rabadash in HHB? Of course by the time HHB was published, Susan had already returned to the real world in LWW, she had a further adventure in Narnia in PC, and in VDT she was off to America. Was she still in America when she is next mentioned in the series, in LB, for instance? Or what else was she doing when the train accident killed the Seven Friends of Narnia and her parents?

[7chronicles]

I don't really care for Narnia fan fiction relationships that were not in the books, or written as Lewis intended.
I find it a nice change to not have every couple get to together at the end of every story! It seems so over done now, that whenever I re-read Narnia, each of the characters and their relationships seem more real to me because they didn't all get together like most stories do.

Even Lewis' explanation for Aravis and Cor getting married seems more real to me then the stuff written today:

Aravis also had many quarrels (and, I'm afraid, even fights) with Cor, but they always made it up again: so that years later, when they were grown up, they were so used to quarrelling and making it up again that they got married so as to go on doing it more conveniently.
Ch. 15 : Rabadash the Ridiculous

[Varnafinde]

That's a very unromantic way of describing the relationship between Aravis and Cor, and I think it fits very well into the way Lewis writes all the books.

I've seen fan fiction stories that go deeper into their relationship, and which focus on adventures they had together - and gives examples of the quarrels! I think that's better than making them too romantic - most of Lewis' characters aren't. Except perhaps Lasaraleen. But then again he doesn't give us a lot of details about her.

[Narnian_Archer]

I don't care much for Narnian fan-fiction because I personally like the series the way it is, and don't really see anything in them that would need to be changed or developed. I do like to daydream a little bit about certain characters and how they would go on living in New Narnia, but I don't care very much for writing it down as a continuation of lives in Narnia.
All that to say, though, I have to admit, I have a soft spot for a Tirian/Lucy and a Jill/The Telmorine who comes to New Narnia (I really seriously keep forgetting his name!!!!) relationship, and it's something I would like to think of as having happened in New Narnia.

[Narnian_Badger]

I'll say that, while I enjoy fanfiction, I'm very much a "must fit within canon" reader/writer. As such, non-canon anything, but especially romances, are my biggest pet peeve of that particular section of the fandom. I don't... mind if someone wants to ship say, Digory and Polly, or Jill and Eustace, but it's not my cup of tea.

Besides that, I think the characters do just fine on their own, without the romance. A lot of stories of recent years throw in a romance subplot, even if it makes no logical sense, just because it's an easy way to create emotional tension between the hero and heroine. It's why love interests tend to be so annoyingly shallow in (for example) comic-book based movies or Lone Hero action flicks. :/

[Varnafinde]

Some of the best Narnian fan fiction I've read, focuses on the Golden Age - all those years when the Pevensies ruled from Cair Paravel, and which Lewis only wrote one story from. So far the writer has written mostly about adventures and about Peter and Edmund defending each other in battles.

There would be room for romance in that period, although most likely coming to nothing, as there is no indication that any of the Four were married when they were taken back to England. (It might be possible, but I would see it as close to Alternative Universe if they were.)

This writer introduces a law that Edmund makes, saying that as Aslan intended the Four to be the rulers, any spouses would not become Kings or Queens. The law dashes the dreams of suitors who primarily want to become King or perhaps High Queen (so the law is commonly called The Dream Dasher).

[Ithilwen]

Whether a non-canon romance should be in a movie adaptation or not depends a great deal on how it's done. If it comes across as shallow and unnecessary, it's obviously a bad idea. But if they find a way for it to benefit the story, then by all means, let it happen. I'm only a theme-purist. Not an event-purist. As long as the heart and soul of the books are there, I'm a happy viewer.

However, I think I personally would not like any romance involving Lucy, no matter how well it's done. That's because of what Lucy represents to me in the story. She's always been a sort of role model to me of following Christ rather than following people, even people close to you, if they contradict what Christ says. The real beauty about her is that her focus is entirely on Aslan, and no one else. If she was in love, her focus would be on both Aslan and a human. I think that would harm her character, overall.


~Riella

[Narnian_Badger]

Interesting, Ithie. I've never liked Lucy romances just because of her age (she's 11 tops, people, this is not Soul Mate time!), but I wouldn't have had a problem with her finding someone later in life... So I guess you see Lucy as a sort of nun? In the good way, I mean, not the stuffy, marriage-is-evil sort of way.

[Ithilwen]

Interesting, Ithie. I've never liked Lucy romances just because of her age (she's 11 tops, people, this is not Soul Mate time!), but I wouldn't have had a problem with her finding someone later in life... So I guess you see Lucy as a sort of nun? In the good way, I mean, not the stuffy, marriage-is-evil sort of way.

Yeah, I suppose a nun would be a good example. I view her as having the "Gift of Singleness" that Paul alludes to in the Bible, when he says it's better not to marry so that our entire focus can be on God.

I definitely see what you mean about her age. Although, that wouldn't be an issue in an HHB adaptation, since they're all grown up in that, I believe.


~Riella

[Narnian_Badger]

Not an issue for HHB, no, but it's usually PC or VDT era for Lucy (...or Tumnus. *grimace*).

I don't know, though... I don't think a husband would have detracted from Lucy's love for Aslan, in fact I have a difficult time imagining Lucy wouldn't have gotten married (she's quite the people person, you see). Of course, the train accident blew all such plans out of the metaphysical water.

[waggawerewolf27]

Aravis also had many quarrels (and, I'm afraid, even fights) with Cor, but they always made it up again: so that years later, when they were grown up, they were so used to quarrelling and making it up again that they got married so as to go on doing it more conveniently. Ch. 15 : Rabadash the Ridiculous.

Actually that quote from HHB is a fairly good description of what most "romance" looks like from an outsider's POV. If you have ever casually watched a day-time soapie - such as what we laughingly refer to as "Days of our Drearies", it is mostly about quarrelling and who did this and who did that etc etc, analysed repeatedly and excruciatingly to the tiniest petty detail, and that is also true of reading some romances, let alone the fan-fiction variety. There is always a difference of opinion, and there is always the fun part where they are either making up or have already made up. And yes, getting married does make it more convenient. It is also clear that C.S.Lewis thinks that physical fights are going too far, and yes, he is right, even when Corin the pugnacious is one of the combatants. Though I did enjoy that DH Harry Potter scene of Hermione & Ron in which Hermione slaps Ron when he returns after his desertion of her and Harry, the episode of Digory forcing Polly away so he could ring the bell was coming perhaps a bit close to domestic violence.

That's a very unromantic way of describing the relationship between Aravis and Cor, and I think it fits very well into the way Lewis writes all the books.

It all depends on what you mean by "romance", though I agree it fits well with the entire book. I've eventually come to the realisation that the ongoing nature of married life makes some arguments, if not fights, unavoidable, and it is how well both parties handle this key part of married life which determines whether the two parties can get married and stay married. Is it a vibrantly alive marriage where the parties concerned come to agreement about their shared goals and priorities, or is it one where only one opinion prevails, and where an icy silence masks the other partner's true opinion? What is C.S.Lewis really saying about marriage and romance in HHB, when at the end he is making the quoted HHB statement, after he has Aravis fleeing an arranged marriage with Ahoshta, and when Edmund warns Susan against marrying Rabadash, who expects everyone else, especially the ladies, to agree with himl?

I've seen fan fiction stories that go deeper into their relationship, and which focus on adventures they had together - and gives examples of the quarrels! I think that's better than making them too romantic - most of Lewis' characters aren't. Except perhaps Lasaraleen. But then again he doesn't give us a lot of details about her.

Yes, Lasaraleen might be a romantic fan-fiction subject, but we never see her husband, and when she gushes over Rabadash, along with all the other princesses, it doesn't seem that her husband matters very much. Yes, Rabadash might be a pleasant suitor at Cair Paravel but is invading another country in pursuit of a reluctant bride truly a romantic way to behave?

I've a feeling that C.S.Lewis has something really worthwhile to say in HHB, the most 'romantic' of the 7 Chronicles, that might not be echoed as well in a fan-fiction, especially if the fan-fiction "romance" is all about appearances and good looks, not about substance.

[Varnafinde]

Actually that quote from HHB is a fairly good description of what most "romance" looks like from an outsider's POV. If you have ever casually watched a day-time soapie - such as what we laughingly refer to as "Days of our Drearies", it is mostly about quarrelling and who did this and who did that etc etc, analysed repeatedly and excruciatingly to the tiniest petty detail, and that is also true of reading some romances, let alone the fan-fiction variety.

That's probably right. Literature usually needs to describe some conflict, and quarrelling fits that term very well. The least romantic bit of Lewis' description is that it is such a short summary, which makes it funny more than anything else. But he does have a point.

I've eventually come to the realisation that the ongoing nature of married life makes some arguments, if not fights, unavoidable, and it is how well both parties handle this key part of married life which determines whether the two parties can get married and stay married.

Someone told about a minister who wouldn't marry a young couple until they had had a quarrel and made up again. He would have agreed with you. The ability to handle disagreements and differences of opinion, and to handle irritation over the other party's conduct, is indeed very important for people trying to live together in a marriage.

I've a feeling that C.S.Lewis has something really worthwhile to say in HHB, the most 'romantic' of the 7 Chronicles, that might not be echoed as well in a fan-fiction, especially if the fan-fiction "romance" is all about appearances and good looks, not about substance.

I suppose you are right. The kind of fan-fiction that doesn't have much substance is one kind that I try to avoid. It wouldn't be able to convey useful advice about real life and real life conflicts in connection with marriage. Lewis does that, and not necessarily by "preaching" about it.

[stardf29]

I admittedly like shipping characters in various stories, but I generally stay away from it as far as Narnia is concerned. I think it's less because I don't want the stories to be "tainted" by romance (though the lack of such is refreshing in its own way), though, and more that I can't really think of too many non-canon pairings to begin with that aren't weird or creepy or that probably wouldn't work out.

As for Digory and Polly, I think that, had Lewis planned for MN when he wrote LWW and/or had not written the Professor as single to start with, there's a chance he would have had them be married. At the same time, I can kind of see how a world-travelling professor like Digory might not have really wanted to "settle down", so to speak. The two don't have any overtly romantic interactions as children, anyways, so it's not something I'm too worried about.

Really, as far as non-canon pairings go, the closest I've seen the Chronicles come to a "ship tease" is when, in The Last Battle, after Eustace makes his first human kill, and Jill is mentioned at suddenly feeling a bit shy around him at that moment. Not a whole lot (and probably explainable without necessitating a romance), but it's there, I guess. Whether it's enough to justify a Eustace/Jill ship is debatable. (There's also the issue of how, at the end of the book, they're essentially in a place where "men neither marry nor are given in marriage", but that's a whole 'nother can of snails.)

I honestly have nothing against those who wish to come up with their own non-canon or even counter-canon romantic pairings, including if they want to write fanfiction about said pairings. As long as they don't get all egotistical about it and try to pass it off as actual canon or anything, that is really their individual right. That said, I have about as much interest in reading such fanfiction as I have in watching canned snails race.