Re: Was Calormen really such a bad country?
Posted: Oct 27, 2011 2:31 am
I had a long reply to wagga's post of Oct 14, but it got eaten when I tried to post . As I explained at the end of it, the "Lepanto" quote was part of a shift to the Calormen/Islam/racism aspect, which I intended to amplify on. I posted it separately, meaning to get right back and amplify, but suddenly got swamped with things to take care of. (BTW, anyone referring to me is welcome to just write GM)
So, some catching up.
I meant morally bad, not in terms of their economy. Great imperial powers often have a flow of wealth into them.
You are making the point that Calormen was not so bad by saying they were just as bad as other very bad places.
Pug and Gumpas were Narnians under the sovereignty of Caspian; the Calormenes were foreigners doing what they thought was legal business. Furthermore, Lord Bern says that banning the slave trade will probably lead to war with Calormen.
But Lewis only ever mentions these wise sayings to ridicule them for their pomposity.
Good point- the settlers must have been very very wicked- I wonder where in the CoN that comes from, or is it extra material supplied by Lewis? IIRC at the end of PC he mentions the previous inhabitants being turned into dumb beasts, but he doesn't say anything about them being Calormenes or how long it took.
Hien wrote:
Yea, my bad- I certainly shouldnt have used the word 'honour'- that's precisely what she did have: an aristocratic code applying to those of equal standing and which could be extended to others e.g. Shasta because he had been accepted as part of their company.
What she didn't have was a universal sense of morality that applied to everyone- late Judaism's legacy, passed on via Christianity and Islam. The difference between Nietszche's 'Master' and 'Slave' moralities.
Very true- Calormen may have gotten worse- from a low starting point!- over the centuries. Or it may be that Susan and Edmund simply didn't know much about Calormen- after all, they'd only been in this world 14 years, most of which would have been spent exploring and administering Narnia- this was their first visit to Calormen. Maybe Rabadash had ordered ixnay on the human sacrifices for the time being- or maybe they just didn't happen very often.
Wagga wrote:
She was 26 at the time.
Even Tumnus says he hates every stone of Tashbaan- and I don't think he's talking about the architecture.
Calormen was a country inhabited by normal humans going about their daily business, raising families, getting married etc., but I think Lewis clearly indicates that there was something rotten at the core of their culture.
So, some catching up.
waggawerewolf27 wrote: Where does C.S.Lewis actually go out of his way to say that things are bad in Calormen? They might have been at the point in time of any of the Chronicles which refer to Calormen, but in Last Battle we are told there were decades and centuries where people lived at peace and flourished in Narnia, so that might have also applied to Calormen.
Times when even the lowlier people were relatively well-off, when even the Western rebels weren't restive. (Why were they restive in that particular Tisroc's reign, anyway?) That might explain why the Calormenes are described as wealthy.
I meant morally bad, not in terms of their economy. Great imperial powers often have a flow of wealth into them.
It doesn't even make them any worse than Narnia's later Telmarine society under Caspian's predecessors.
The Calormenes might have dealt in slaves, as we see in VDT, LB and HHB, but it was pirates, the likes of Pug, and, indirectly the likes of Gumpas who were responsible for Calormenes buying slaves in VDT, since the Lone Islands had a market there to supply the slaves the Calormenes wanted to buy. Those pirates, Pug and Gumpas weren't Calormenes. C.S.Lewis has slavery in others of his Narnia Chronicles: MN and LWW spring to mind, even SC. Jadis, late of Charn, regards everyone else as slaves and minions. Is the Calormene empire any worse than the White Witch's realm, The Lady of the Green Kirtle's Underland or Charn?
You are making the point that Calormen was not so bad by saying they were just as bad as other very bad places.
Caspian denounces the slavery that has grown up in the Lone Islands, but he doesn't denounce trade as such, or the Calormene merchants at the slave market in Narrowhaven. Nor does he see any problem with people working hard, even if they are Calormene merchants. And he is reasonable enough to return the Calormene merchants the money that is paid to them. It is bludgers like Pug and Governor Gumpas he has issue with.
Pug and Gumpas were Narnians under the sovereignty of Caspian; the Calormenes were foreigners doing what they thought was legal business. Furthermore, Lord Bern says that banning the slave trade will probably lead to war with Calormen.
We are also told that the Calormenes are courteous and wise, and they certainly have plenty of wise sayings that suggest both. We hear some of them at Arsheesh's hut, and in the Tisroc's palace, when the Tisroc and Rabadash confer about the Anvard raid. These wise sayings, the Calormene traditions they evoke, together with the sort of education Calormene children do get, do show that the Calormenes are capable of understanding and appreciating good behaviour.
But Lewis only ever mentions these wise sayings to ridicule them for their pomposity.
Wow! I wonder what the colonists did, that was so much worse than exploitation and aggressiveness? If Aslan had that power to intervene in Telmar and Narnia, why didn't he round on Calormen, itself, for having aggressive leaders, greedy to invade smaller countries to enslave them?
Good point- the settlers must have been very very wicked- I wonder where in the CoN that comes from, or is it extra material supplied by Lewis? IIRC at the end of PC he mentions the previous inhabitants being turned into dumb beasts, but he doesn't say anything about them being Calormenes or how long it took.
Hien wrote:
For example, it was said earlier 'Even Aravis converts to ideals of honour through her exposure to Shasta and the horses.'
But that’s not so! Aravis had a very clear code of honour which owed nothing to Shasta or the horses! We know that she preferred death to the dishonour of a forced marriage (which would have been a rape, of course), that she would never desert a comrade, that she despised secret malice disguised by subservience.
Yea, my bad- I certainly shouldnt have used the word 'honour'- that's precisely what she did have: an aristocratic code applying to those of equal standing and which could be extended to others e.g. Shasta because he had been accepted as part of their company.
What she didn't have was a universal sense of morality that applied to everyone- late Judaism's legacy, passed on via Christianity and Islam. The difference between Nietszche's 'Master' and 'Slave' moralities.
Evidence against: I do not believe that Susan would have contemplated marriage with a man who condoned human sacrifice. To me this is open and shut. And Edmund... not a word about such a thing, from the Just? Not believeable!
Very true- Calormen may have gotten worse- from a low starting point!- over the centuries. Or it may be that Susan and Edmund simply didn't know much about Calormen- after all, they'd only been in this world 14 years, most of which would have been spent exploring and administering Narnia- this was their first visit to Calormen. Maybe Rabadash had ordered ixnay on the human sacrifices for the time being- or maybe they just didn't happen very often.
Wagga wrote:
When we see Susan in HHB, she is a grown lady, or is she playing at being one? Susan comes across as a fairly normal 1950's teenager who thinks with hormones, emotions and senses, who might be able to enjoy books and the radio, but thinks she is going to get married, anyway.
She was 26 at the time.
When she first meets Rabadash he is the exotic-looking romantic hero. But when she spends time in Tashbaan, being hosted by Rabadash, she starts coming to grips with ethical and religious doubts.
But is it Rabadash, himself, or the culture of Calormen which should have sounded the alarm bells in Susan's ears?
Even Tumnus says he hates every stone of Tashbaan- and I don't think he's talking about the architecture.
Calormen was a country inhabited by normal humans going about their daily business, raising families, getting married etc., but I think Lewis clearly indicates that there was something rotten at the core of their culture.