Was Calormen really such a bad country?

[Graymouser]

I had a long reply to wagga's post of Oct 14, but it got eaten when I tried to post . As I explained at the end of it, the "Lepanto" quote was part of a shift to the Calormen/Islam/racism aspect, which I intended to amplify on. I posted it separately, meaning to get right back and amplify, but suddenly got swamped with things to take care of. (BTW, anyone referring to me is welcome to just write GM)

So, some catching up.

Where does C.S.Lewis actually go out of his way to say that things are bad in Calormen? They might have been at the point in time of any of the Chronicles which refer to Calormen, but in Last Battle we are told there were decades and centuries where people lived at peace and flourished in Narnia, so that might have also applied to Calormen.

Times when even the lowlier people were relatively well-off, when even the Western rebels weren't restive. (Why were they restive in that particular Tisroc's reign, anyway?) That might explain why the Calormenes are described as wealthy.

I meant morally bad, not in terms of their economy. Great imperial powers often have a flow of wealth into them.

It doesn't even make them any worse than Narnia's later Telmarine society under Caspian's predecessors.

The Calormenes might have dealt in slaves, as we see in VDT, LB and HHB, but it was pirates, the likes of Pug, and, indirectly the likes of Gumpas who were responsible for Calormenes buying slaves in VDT, since the Lone Islands had a market there to supply the slaves the Calormenes wanted to buy. Those pirates, Pug and Gumpas weren't Calormenes. C.S.Lewis has slavery in others of his Narnia Chronicles: MN and LWW spring to mind, even SC. Jadis, late of Charn, regards everyone else as slaves and minions. Is the Calormene empire any worse than the White Witch's realm, The Lady of the Green Kirtle's Underland or Charn?

You are making the point that Calormen was not so bad by saying they were just as bad as other very bad places.

Caspian denounces the slavery that has grown up in the Lone Islands, but he doesn't denounce trade as such, or the Calormene merchants at the slave market in Narrowhaven. Nor does he see any problem with people working hard, even if they are Calormene merchants. And he is reasonable enough to return the Calormene merchants the money that is paid to them. It is bludgers like Pug and Governor Gumpas he has issue with.

Pug and Gumpas were Narnians under the sovereignty of Caspian; the Calormenes were foreigners doing what they thought was legal business. Furthermore, Lord Bern says that banning the slave trade will probably lead to war with Calormen.

We are also told that the Calormenes are courteous and wise, and they certainly have plenty of wise sayings that suggest both. We hear some of them at Arsheesh's hut, and in the Tisroc's palace, when the Tisroc and Rabadash confer about the Anvard raid. These wise sayings, the Calormene traditions they evoke, together with the sort of education Calormene children do get, do show that the Calormenes are capable of understanding and appreciating good behaviour.

But Lewis only ever mentions these wise sayings to ridicule them for their pomposity.

Wow! I wonder what the colonists did, that was so much worse than exploitation and aggressiveness? If Aslan had that power to intervene in Telmar and Narnia, why didn't he round on Calormen, itself, for having aggressive leaders, greedy to invade smaller countries to enslave them?

Good point- the settlers must have been very very wicked- I wonder where in the CoN that comes from, or is it extra material supplied by Lewis? IIRC at the end of PC he mentions the previous inhabitants being turned into dumb beasts, but he doesn't say anything about them being Calormenes or how long it took.

Hien wrote:

For example, it was said earlier 'Even Aravis converts to ideals of honour through her exposure to Shasta and the horses.'

But that’s not so! Aravis had a very clear code of honour which owed nothing to Shasta or the horses! We know that she preferred death to the dishonour of a forced marriage (which would have been a rape, of course), that she would never desert a comrade, that she despised secret malice disguised by subservience.

Yea, my bad- I certainly shouldnt have used the word 'honour'- that's precisely what she did have: an aristocratic code applying to those of equal standing and which could be extended to others e.g. Shasta because he had been accepted as part of their company.

What she didn't have was a universal sense of morality that applied to everyone- late Judaism's legacy, passed on via Christianity and Islam. The difference between Nietszche's 'Master' and 'Slave' moralities.

Evidence against: I do not believe that Susan would have contemplated marriage with a man who condoned human sacrifice. To me this is open and shut. And Edmund... not a word about such a thing, from the Just? Not believeable!

Very true- Calormen may have gotten worse- from a low starting point!- over the centuries. Or it may be that Susan and Edmund simply didn't know much about Calormen- after all, they'd only been in this world 14 years, most of which would have been spent exploring and administering Narnia- this was their first visit to Calormen. Maybe Rabadash had ordered ixnay on the human sacrifices for the time being- or maybe they just didn't happen very often.

Wagga wrote:

When we see Susan in HHB, she is a grown lady, or is she playing at being one? Susan comes across as a fairly normal 1950's teenager who thinks with hormones, emotions and senses, who might be able to enjoy books and the radio, but thinks she is going to get married, anyway.

She was 26 at the time.

When she first meets Rabadash he is the exotic-looking romantic hero. But when she spends time in Tashbaan, being hosted by Rabadash, she starts coming to grips with ethical and religious doubts.

But is it Rabadash, himself, or the culture of Calormen which should have sounded the alarm bells in Susan's ears?

Even Tumnus says he hates every stone of Tashbaan- and I don't think he's talking about the architecture.

Calormen was a country inhabited by normal humans going about their daily business, raising families, getting married etc., but I think Lewis clearly indicates that there was something rotten at the core of their culture.

[waggawerewolf27]

Yes, Calormen is the reminder of what everyday life is in the real world. No wonder Eustace thought it was the least phony country. And no wonder creatures like Tumnus or Reepicheep would find Calormene life atrocious.

In Calormen they proposed sawing off Jewel's unicorn horn, and using him to pull a cart. They used talking horses for logging - and no talk of their rights as free-born creatures, either. In effect, once Calormen had taken over Narnia, the country had died, regardless of whatever lapse of time took place after Tirian's entry into the stable. The king was no more, the animals still alive had no leader to countermand the Calormenes, the magic, the innocence and the goodness of Narnia had left, leaving just another everyday sort of dreariness.

You are making the point that Calormen was not so bad by saying they were just as bad as other very bad places.

No, I don't think that Calormen was anything like as bad as Charn or other places. In Underland, LOTGK had a lot of gnomes (gnomes of Zurich?) running around about her business, without being able to think for themselves, play or laugh or joke or anything. Calormen as portrayed in HHB did seem a bit similar, but whilst Arsheesh told Shasta to keep his mind on his work, he never stopped Shasta thinking for himself.

The ordinary people of Calormen were so busy with their own affairs they didn't notice the escaping Bree and his party, but they weren't actually trying to stop their escaping either. Lazaraleen was more pre-occupied in showing off rather than in victimising others: her lurid threats if her slaves mentioned Aravis and her equine companions were more unthinkingly unrealistic than a revelation of her character.

The Calormenes were legalistic for sure. At least, unlike Jadis' Charn, they recognised the need for law. GM, you say, yourself, that Lord Berne feared war with Calormen over stopping the slave trade in the Lone Islands, and that the Calormene merchants thought they were going about legal business.

Yes, trade embargoes are one reason for countries to go to war. Although Caspian refunded the Calormene merchants' money, the Calormenes might not see his actions as legal, since they promote trade over freedom, regarding the Northern countries as idle and disorderly.

And I agree that there was a code of honour among the Tarkaans. I do think it was extended to others who were regarded as freeborn adults. For Anradin did bargain with Arsheesh to buy Shasta. He didn't simply take Shasta captive, unlike Pug and his men's actions with Caspian's party in VDT, and unlike what Jadis attempted to do every place she went.

But Lewis only ever mentions these wise sayings to ridicule them for their pomposity.

That was Shasta's point of view, not necessarily that of C.S.Lewis, himself. I think that those sayings were also often used to deflect questions, and for disinformation, as in that bargaining episode between Arsheesh and Anradin. The sayings did help to regulate Calormene society, to enable ordinary people to understand the difference between right and wrong. As Ahoshta points out, they weren't there for entertainment, but for enlightenment, unlike the romantic stories of Narnia's society.

I think that C.S.Lewis was making a point that 'wise sayings' are all very well, but all work and no play makes Jack (oops) a very dull boy . People learn from entertaining romances and adventures as well as from learning wise sayings, something which seemed to have escaped the oddly pleasure-loving Calormene court.

GM says: "What she didn't have was a universal sense of morality that applied to everyone"

Yes, Aravis did have to get rid of her attitude that 'less important people should get out of the way of more important people'. And she needed to realise that slaves were not to be disregarded and badly treated because of their enforced servitude. But it says heaps about Aravis' basic sense of decency, that she was able to learn better. That even when she escaped with Hwin, she was prepared to see her horse in the new perspective Bree shows her.

GM says: "She was 26 at the time".

That old? Oops, Susan would be almost an 'old maid' by the reckoning of those days, when many girls hoped to marry once they turned 21. If it was as long as 14 years she and Edmund had spent in Narnia, though, they should have found out a bit about that world. Evidently they had already formed a deep friendship with King Lune, so would have learned about the sorts of things that went on in Calormen.

Therefore if human sacrifice had been performed on a regular basis at that time, the Pevensies would have known about it. And Hien is right about Susan. Edmund, who did have doubts about Rabadash, would not have tolerated human sacrifice at all, having nearly become one, himself, in LWW. I think that the lamb's testimony is something that shows the deterioration of an exploitative and aggressive Calormene society, rather than something there from the beginning.

One of the most evocative parts of the Narnia series is that hall in Charn where Polly notices the statues of Charn's rulers, finishing with Jadis, herself. Their different expressions, changing from rather nice people who cared about what they did, to less caring, more selfish people, to people who would go out of their way to make others suffer, does show a real deterioration in morals. I doubt that Calormen ever went quite as low as Charn.

[DiGoRyKiRkE]

So I think this discussion now has to turn from "Was Calormene a Bad Country" to "At what point in time did it progressively get worse?" Because there have been evidences that have shown that it's not too terrible in HAHB, but by the time we get to LB, we've got (presumably) human sacrifices going on.

What happened?

*P.S. This is not a "Mod Mandate" for the conversation to move on. . . merely an idle thought that I happened to grab as it was speaking

[Louloudi the Centaur]

Although there is no way I will be able to answer on the level of many of us in this debate, I am going to share some of my own thoughts after re-reading HHB, one of the books that prominently features the Calormenes. These thoughts are based off the characters we get to know in the book other than Aravis. I may not have the greatest understanding of the books yet, but here they are any way.

It is revealed in the very first chapter that Shasta/ Cor is not Arsheesh's son. This is because Arsheesh found young Shasta as a baby in a river boat, and even thought Arsheesh was considerably cruel to Shasta as he got older, he still did an act very kind.

Let's move on to Aravis' father. In Calormene customs, many girls would marry at the age she was at. However, Aravis was not pleased at who she was to marry, and keep in mind that this was arranged. While this may not be exactly "bad", I did make an observation of this. Aravis did not like this, but then again, perhaps other girls did not like who they were to marry? I don't know.

But the major one within HHB, is Rabadash.He wants Queen Susan so much, he is willing to take 200 horsemen to attack another country just to have her hand in marriage. However, the Tisroc is not willing to let his son do this at all, but does still speak of the Narnians rather harshly, and believes that the gods hate them, and does not like the fact they are free. Then, in the end, the Tisroc allows Rabadash to try to take Narnia, but unharmed.

Lasaraleen, another major Calormene in the book, is not really that cruel at all, but rather dainty and stupid. As far as I can see and remember, Lasaraleen doesn't seem to speak against the Narnians or Archenlanders.

To me, Calormen is definitely not a bad country at all, and the people are not quite evil, though at times they can indeed be very cruel. But with Arsheesh, for example, they have done charitable acts, even in spite of their seemingly cruel nature. Besides, how much of Calormene do we actually get to know? As mentioned, there are few Calormenes we even get to know at all. If Lewis had gotten into more detail about the people, perhaps there wouldn't have been so much of a controversy.

Soon I will have to read LB to find out even more.

[Anhun]

even thought Arsheesh was considerably cruel to Shasta as he got older, he still did an act very kind.

No it was not a kind act. In the same way that slave owners provide for their slaves' children in the hopes of having a generation of slaves for the future, Arsheesh decided to raise Shasta as an investment. He treated Shasta as a master treats his slave, not as a father treats his son.

Lasaraleen, another major Calormene in the book, is not really that cruel at all, but rather dainty and stupid.

Lasaraleen is utterly self-centered. While it's true that she does not wish harm to anybody, she would not go an inch out of her way for someone without being strong-armed into it.

But really, the things that make Calormen so bad are cultural evils, not some complete lack of goodness in the Calormene's souls. A cultural evil occurs when a group of people lack a definition of basic human dignity, or they do not apply that definition to some sections of the population. People with basically good inclinations (I think all people have some of those, but that's a whole separate discussion) learn to accept human or civil rights abuses because "everyone says it's okay." Using other people as property, or as a means to an end, is a way of life in Calormen, whether we are talking about Arsheesh selling Shasta, or Lasaraleen encouraging Aravis to marry Ahoshta because she could become important.

[Graymouser]

No it was not a kind act. In the same way that slave owners provide for their slaves' children in the hopes of having a generation of slaves for the future, Arsheesh decided to raise Shasta as an investment. He treated Shasta as a master treats his slave, not as a father treats his son.

Well, at least as a harsh father, but I agree on the main point. There's a reason children, and particularly sons, are highly desired in non-industrialised societies, and that's for their labour when they get older. Childlessness is a disaster; girls a lesser evil, hence them often being exposed.

Would Arsheesh have taken Shasta in if he had been crippled, or a girl- or would he have just shrugged, said "it's the will of Tash" and dropped him/her into the water?

But really, the things that make Calormen so bad are cultural evils, not some complete lack of goodness in the Calormene's souls. A cultural evil occurs when a group of people lack a definition of basic human dignity, or they do not apply that definition to some sections of the population. People with basically good inclinations (I think all people have some of those, but that's a whole separate discussion) learn to accept human or civil rights abuses because "everyone says it's okay." Using other people as property, or as a means to an end, is a way of life in Calormen, whether we are talking about Arsheesh selling Shasta, or Lasaraleen encouraging Aravis to marry Ahoshta because she could become important.

This is the main point- not that there were not any decent people there; not that most people didn't have human affections; not that there weren't the rules and regulations of a well-ordered society.

I mean, all those were in place in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia or any other society, no matter how cruel- ever see "Apocalypto", where the war-band leader hands his favorite knife to his son, telling him it has taken many lives, than urging him to get some rest, after his hard day of murdering and kidnapping innocent villagers- a perfectly touching scene of father/son affection.

Lewis wasn't comparing Calormen to ancient or contemporary societies in our world, he was comparing it to Narnia and Archenland, and finding it lacking.

As for Charn, all we know is that the rulers became cruel- we don't know anything about the common people.

On the reliability of the Lamb on human sacrifice- just after that, Trinian denounces Shift, and starts to question the identity of Aslan with Tash "who fed on the blood of his own people"-it doesn't sound metaphorical.

So, yes, Calormen may have deteriorated over time, but it did so from a low starting point and a low level throughout its history- as we are shown it by Lewis.

[waggawerewolf27]

Actually I agree with Louloudi , who made some good points, that Arsheesh was being kind - for him - to rear Shasta, and he, himself, knew it. From his unimaginative and practical point of view, Shasta might have been better off with Anradin than he would be with Arsheesh, or at least not much worse off.

even thought Arsheesh was considerably cruel to Shasta as he got older, he still did an act very kind.

No it was not a kind act. In the same way that slave owners provide for their slaves' children in the hopes of having a generation of slaves for the future, Arsheesh decided to raise Shasta as an investment. He treated Shasta as a master treats his slave, not as a father treats his son.

Lasaraleen, another major Calormene in the book, is not really that cruel at all, but rather dainty and stupid.

Lasaraleen is utterly self-centered. While it's true that she does not wish harm to anybody, she would not go an inch out of her way for someone without being strong-armed into it.

But really, the things that make Calormen so bad are cultural evils, not some complete lack of goodness in the Calormene's souls.

Anhun, whilst I agree with your definition of Calormene cruelty etc as being more cultural than due to individual malice, I can't agree with your summation of either Arsheesh or Lazaraleen. Both characters, whatever their faults, were taking quite a big step. Arsheesh was never a wealthy person, even though he was able to spare food for a growing child. Aslan wouldn't have passed on Shasta to Arsheesh's tender mercies if he was all bad.

Even though I agree with GM that Arsheesh wouldn't have reared a girl or a disabled child, and that he thought of Shasta as a sort of investment, I think we still have to recognise that he repaid Aslan's trust by rearing Shasta at all, so that he could fulfil Aslan's mission to safeguard Archenland. Shasta was there for a reason, even if Arsheesh didn't know why he was there. We don't know what would have happened if the baby Aslan was protecting for a future destiny had been a girl or disabled in some way.

Lazaraleen, as you say, is also part of a culture that values materialistic things, power, wealth and position, the same as Arsheesh. And I agree that she was unthinking, snobbish and ridiculous at times. But in helping Aravis and the horses to escape she was also running a huge risk with her personal safety. I doubt that the Tisroc would think it was one of 'Lazaraleen's mad pranks' if he found out that she had overheard the Tisroc's plans, or that Aravis' father would be all that happy that Lazaraleen had helped his daughter escape.

So I think this discussion now has to turn from "Was Calormene a Bad Country" to "At what point in time did it progressively get worse?" Because there have been evidences that have shown that it's not too terrible in HAHB, but by the time we get to LB, we've got (presumably) human sacrifices going on.

I don't think you can answer this thought of yours without consulting Calormene history. Unfortunately we don't know much about it. Just because it was founded by outlaws from Archenland doesn't mean it could not become a well-organised society with a high standard of civilization, with proper roads, postal services, literature and education. After all, there are real world precedents for similar societies.

Aravis noted that the Tisroc's palace was really quite beautiful in places, as was Lazaraleen's Tashbaan accommodation. Unlike the carvings on SC's giantish bridge which, as Eustace and Jill noted, weren't really very nice. And I am sure that Shasta had a very good impression of the comforts of the lodgings the Narnians were using during their Tashbaan stay. Even the vase Corin knocked over was a work of art.

All we know is that those outlaws who didn't like even Calormene's orderly society went on to Telmar where they were turned into animals when they got too bad. It also seems that from time to time, as its empire grew bigger, there were rebellions in various parts which had to be put down, thus enabling a class of war-like Tarkaans, with their own ideas about a code of honour and of the privilege which was their due, to be employed in policing Calormen.

Yes, Calormen was materialistic. Its people did not appreciate animals who talked, and thought the Northern kingdoms as being idle and disorderly, rather than 'free'. Judging from what the Tisroc said, Calormen, itself, had been little affected by the White Witch, and was thankful to Tash, their chief God, that they had been protected from her. I don't think that before the advent of the White Witch that Calormen was a bad place at all, though it seems slavery had sprung up by the time the Pevensies entered Narnia.

It wasn't until the first year of that particular Tisroc's reign, when Jadis was destroyed, that the eyes of the Calormenes actually turned towards Archenland, and I think that was a first marker of the rot starting to set in. Thanks to Rabadash's folly, the Calormenes then left both Narnia and Archenland alone for longer, allowing the Telmarines to take over Narnia in due course. By the time of Caspian's revival of Narnia, and Erlian's later final defeat of the giants, Calormen had plenty of time to degenerate into human sacrifice and more.

But even then I say it still wasn't as bad as Charn, where everyone was enslaved, according to Jadis, who apparently could read minds, and whose grandfather had slaughtered many of his nobles for having rebellious thoughts. We saw what happened in Charn when Jadis broke the taboo on using the Deplorable Word.

[Louloudi the Centaur]

Actually I agree with Louloudi , who made some good points, that Arsheesh was being kind - for him - to rear Shasta, and he, himself, knew it. From his unimaginative and practical point of view, Shasta might have been better off with Anradin than he would be with Arsheesh, or at least not much worse off.

That is what I meant in my post above. Of course while Shasta did basically live the life as more or less of a slave to Arsheesh, it was at least better than being left to die in a boat alone.

[narnialuver]

I think that the Calormen government is bad but for the most part the people are good

[Graymouser]

No, Anhun is right here- Arsheesh's motives were utterly selfish. He himself says that (presumably because he is older) he'll have to buy or hire another boy- and either way, he'll have to keep him alive and fed enough to work. So by saving Shasta he doesn't have to shell out the money- it's the same as if he'd found a donkey foal in the boat.

Louloudi, you're basically making the case that Arsheesh puts to Anradin, who immediately sees through it, and points out that the fisherman has got ten times as much out of Shasta as he put into him.

Plus, I don't think that Arsheesh cared a jot what happened to Shasta afterward- if he knew what Bree knew, would he have refused to sell?- I doubt it.

As for Aslan's foreknowledge, he may have directed him to someone who he knew would keep Shasta alive out of greed but would treat him so miserably that Shasta would feel no affection for his rescuer and would be happy to flee at the first opportunity.

What's next? How the wicked stepmother and the ugly stepsisters were so badly slandered by Cinderella, after all the care they took looking after her, letting her sleep in the nice warm fireplace?

Wagga said:

Lazaraleen, as you say, is also part of a culture that values materialistic things, power, wealth and position, the same as Arsheesh. And I agree that she was unthinking, snobbish and ridiculous at times. But in helping Aravis and the horses to escape she was also running a huge risk with her personal safety. I doubt that the Tisroc would think it was one of 'Lazaraleen's mad pranks' if he found out that she had overheard the Tisroc's plans, or that Aravis' father would be all that happy that Lazaraleen had helped his daughter escape.

But Lasaraleen didn't think she was running a risk, and as soon as she found out she was, she tried to get Aravis to abandon their scheme
Look at the sequence- Lasaraelen thinks it's quite funny that Aravis's father is running around Tashbaan looking for her while Las hides her, so she's not afraid of him then. She views helping Aravis as one of her pranks, and she only changes her mind when she fears she will be found out- she has obviously been exaggerating by claiming to be "almost palace people"-and especially when she hears what the Tisroc says about anyone who discovers their plan.

At that time she insists on cancelling the scheme, and only Aravis's threats force her to go through with it, so not a particularly loyal friend.

The important think about Lasaraleen is her threats, though. Obviously the sequence is used for comic effects-"first beaten to death, then burned alive and after that kept on bread and water for six weeks"- but the point is this foolish and flighty teenager- 14 or 15- absolutely had this power of life or death over her slaves.
And while this threat wasn't carried out, one can quite easily imagine her saying "that stupid girl made an absolute mess of my hair- 20 lashes" or " that clumsy oaf dropped my favorite vase- send him to the salt mines"- and this power , part and parcel of Calormene civilisation, is evil in itself.

Can you imagine Lucy or Susan issuing an order like that? Can you imagine it being said of Edmund that it would be better to be dead than one of his servants? Can you imagine Peter ordering a cook put to death for causing him indigestion?

I don't think that before the advent of the White Witch that Calormen was a bad place at all, though it seems slavery had sprung up by the time the Pevensies entered Narnia.

It wasn't until the first year of that particular Tisroc's reign, when Jadis was destroyed, that the eyes of the Calormenes actually turned towards Archenland, and I think that was a first marker of the rot starting to set in.

Well, if slavery's ok, and you don't think of a regular practise of murdering your father to seize his throne as rot, I suppose.

I notice all the examples you give about Calormen being not bad are economic or cultural and yes, they were advanced that way- though their statues are "impressive, rather than agreeable to look at"- but then so were the Gentle Giants, or Charn.

Every time they are mentioned in something involving morals, it's in a bad way- and that is much more important for what they represent in the books.

[waggawerewolf27]

No, Anhun is right here- Arsheesh's motives were utterly selfish. He himself says that (presumably because he is older) he'll have to buy or hire another boy- and either way, he'll have to keep him alive and fed enough to work. So by saving Shasta he doesn't have to shell out the money- it's the same as if he'd found a donkey foal in the boat.

So the donkey foal is useful, therefore Arsheesh saves it, and rears it to work for him, same as the donkey that Arsheesh did have. He keeps the donkey fed, just as he also did for Shasta, but also expects that Shasta, like the donkey, would make himself useful. I think that Arsheesh was quite right, following peasant practice everywhere. Everyone on a farm has to pull their weight, and earn their keep, which both Shasta and the donkey undoubtedly did. No wonder Shasta had a fellow feeling for the donkey.

You are also right about Arsheesh needing another boy once Shasta is sold. Since he is childless and partnerless, he would need someone else along to help. This is why farmers and peasants need wives and children anyway, and why marriages might be arranged even for poorer people. And the need for a replacement for Shasta was the only reason the Tarkaan would accept as a valid argument for paying Arsheesh better money than he was prepared to pay, or any money at all, if he could get away with it.

And let us not judge Arsheesh too harshly. He did not drag Shasta off to the slave market, finding Shasta too useful, himself. It was the Tarkaan who took the initiative, not Arsheesh. If Arsheesh had opposed the Tarkaan more forcefully, or resisted the opportunity the Tarkaan afforded him, there is no telling what Anradin would have done, being armed and dangerous. And by appearances alone, as Anradin noted, Shasta was demonstrably not Arsheesh's child. I'm not saying that Arsheesh was a pleasant character. Possibly his sour disposition, not just the meagre living he earned, was why he never was considered marriage material.

What's next? How the wicked stepmother and the ugly stepsisters were so badly slandered by Cinderella, after all the care they took looking after her, letting her sleep in the nice warm fireplace?

Maybe you might enjoy reading Gregory Maguire's (1999) adult retelling of Cinderella, in Confessions of an ugly stepsister. There are always two sides to the coin of an argument. That is also why Aravis' stepmother could say almost truthfully that she was doing the right thing by Aravis in arranging her marriage to Ahoshta, who was both wealthy and powerful and would enhance Aravis' family's position in society.

Let's move on to Aravis' father. In Calormene customs, many girls would marry at the age she was at. However, Aravis was not pleased at who she was to marry, and keep in mind that this was arranged. While this may not be exactly "bad", I did make an observation of this. Aravis did not like this, but then again, perhaps other girls did not like who they were to marry? I don't know.

As Bree tells us it was the Calormene custom for girls to marry at Aravis' age, and I expect this applied to all levels of society, not only the Tarkaan class. Yes, marriages were arranged, once girls reached the age of 13 or 14, which explains why Lazaraleen had the freedom to do even as much as she did for Aravis. Calormene culture was strictly prosaic about such matters. Personal choice or 'romance' wouldn't enter into the thoughts of such a society. Here C.S.Lewis is pointing out a practicality of most societies up until the last century and which is still the case in some parts of the world, even today.

But Lasaraleen didn't think she was running a risk, and as soon as she found out she was, she tried to get Aravis to abandon their scheme
Look at the sequence- Lasaraelen thinks it's quite funny that Aravis's father is running around Tashbaan looking for her while Las hides her, so she's not afraid of him then. She views helping Aravis as one of her pranks, and she only changes her mind when she fears she will be found out- she has obviously been exaggerating by claiming to be "almost palace people"-and especially when she hears what the Tisroc says about anyone who discovers their plan.

At that time she insists on cancelling the scheme, and only Aravis's threats force her to go through with it, so not a particularly loyal friend.

The thing to remember about Lazaraleen is that she was only a 14 year old girl, even though she was married. It doesn't seem like she had any appreciation of what Aravis' father might be going through. Unlike Aravis, she had acquiesced in her expected marriage arrangements, and yes, it had turned out well for her. She got to mix in court circles - that she was boasting of this doesn't make it less true that she could and did get access to the Tisroc's palace.

Yes, Lazaraleen did talk like the people she met, such as the Tisroc and Rabadash. And whatever they said, I do think that Calormenes as a society were given to hubris, hyperbole and exaggeration. Making the threat sound bloodthirsty enough was a way to get compliance, and to quell objections, I'd imagine. Though by the time of the Last Battle the Calormenes would have taken this pattern of thought and speech to its logical conclusion and would be murdering, executing and sacrificing people as a regular practice. Whilst Lazaraleen might sound comically horrible, I doubt a still-immature 14 year old girl would really have though out the implications of what she is actually saying when threatening slaves to remain silent about Aravis' presence.

There is something else to remember about Lazaraleen. She was utterly alone when she was parading around Tashbaan, showing off the lovely clothes she was able to wear, thanks to her new status as a married woman. Oh yes, there were the fun parties and the court. There were the slaves, who could have gossiped to the master of the house or the slaves of other houses, such as family members. But where was her husband? If he'd been around he would not have abided Lazaraleen helping anyone for a moment.

Aravis could see the hollowness of Lazaraleen's position. Yes, Lazaraleen had been lucky to have all the material things her heart could desire. Hopefully her husband was better looking than Ahoshta, and would continue to treat her well. That is why Lazaraleen thought Aravis was crazy to run away. But Aravis was not prepared to accept whatever husband was doled out to her, no matter how wealthy, or how powerful he was at court.

And finally, Aravis and Lazaraleen were schoolmates, which made them the same age, and although friends, we did not know just how friendly they were at school. Judging by their interactions, I'd say that Aravis was the stronger personality, and it was she who led Lazaraleen, just as she had to pressure Lazaraleen to continue on with the plan they concocted between them, however terrified for her own life she had become.

[DiGoRyKiRkE]

MOD NOTE: Guys, this topic is really starting to stray. Please keep the conversation on Narnia and Calormen. I don't mind you guys bringing in some outside quotes to support your claims, but all this talk about Islam, False Prophets, etc. . . needs to stop.