Plot holes, inconsistencies, and incorrect adaptations?

[wolfloversk]

This is for any discussion of potential plot holes, inconsistencies, etc. in either the books or the movies, and whether you agree with them or not. (Mods please close if something already exists.)

I thought I'd bring up a few points:

1) Jadis' origin: The filmmakers have mentioned before that Lewis changed the origin of Jadis, from being a giant/ jinn mix from the north, to coming from Charn. Then it was brought up somewhere around NW that both could very well be true. I'm further believing that this is the case because MN describes her as being Giant-like and in Ch 13. "Nor did the Wich waste any time in gazing up at them; they saw her set off northward down the slope of the hill." (emphasis added) So perhaps infact both are true.

2) "We can never know what would've happened, Lucy.": Ok this is one of my favorite quotes from that movie, but as I was going through MN I came across this- "Understand, then, that it would have healed her; but not to your joy or hers. That day would have come when both you and she would have looked back and said it would have been better to die in that illness...That is what would have happened, child, with a stolen apple." Ah! I wonder if there's any argueing that he only meant in Lucy's case...

3) Riding centaurs and unicorns considered rude and unnoble. Ok I don't have all the exact quotes here but people have complained that Peter rides a unicorn in LWW and Susan in PC because it goes against what is said in some of the books (namely SC and LB) However, I believe that it was alright because in LWW (the book) Aslan says, "Those who can't keep up- that is, children, dwarfs, and small animals- must ride on the backs of those who can- that is lions, centaurs, unicorns, horses, giants and eagles." My personal theory is that either a) this is overridden in emergencies or with permission, or b) it was never considered rude until the time that SC took place.

4) Eustace not knowing about dragons: After watching VDT, my freind, her freind, and myself were talking about Eustace, and my freind was explaining how she was upset that they changed the dragoning sequence. She was explaining how in the book Eustace didn't even know what a dragon was, then her freind said, "Wait how could he not know what a dragon was if the painting had a dragon on the prow?" So we all looked at each other and got into the conversation that we should ask Lewis if we see him in heaven... I couldn't remember this from the book, so I asked it to a bunch of other NWers on the chat, and they seemed to confirm this...

So thoughts?

[outlier]

SC Ch16 "To ride on a Centaur is, no doubt, a great honour (and except Jill and Eustace there is probably no one alive in teh world today who has had it) but very uncomfortable..."

So I guess that would kinda go against Susan riding one in the castle raid...

However for a unicorn, I'm pretty sure that Tirian rides Jewel so that should be ok that Peter rides on in LWW???

[DiGoRyKiRkE]

Okay, lots and lots of material here

We can never know what would've happened, Lucy.": Ok this is one of my favorite quotes from that movie, but as I was going through MN I came across this- "Understand, then, that it would have healed her; but not to your joy or hers. That day would have come when both you and she would have looked back and said it would have been better to die in that illness...That is what would have happened, child, with a stolen apple." Ah! I wonder if there's any argueing that he only meant in Lucy's case...

I think that there is a huge differences in the two examples provided. One examples deals with a fluid and subjective future, in which the end results are unpredictable. The second deals with very predictable results. It would be the same thing as asking Aslan "Aslan, if I stick my head in the fireplace, will I get burned?" It would be stupid for Aslan to answer "We can never know what would have happened." Because in this particular situation, we can. The same is true for the situation in The Magician's Nephew, as Aslan knows what the apple is capable of doing, and knows what results would have happened from feeding an apple to a sick mother.

Ok I don't have all the exact quotes here but people have complained that Peter rides a unicorn in LWW and Susan in PC because it goes against what is said in some of the books

I assume that you're talking about the films? Talking Horses, Centaurs, and Unicorns should all fall under the quote in The Horse and His Boy concerning doing what each person does best in the wars. Only in situations of war (as were in the film adaptation of The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe) would such things be tolerable, and therefore, the addition to the film shouldn't upset any true fan of the book

As for Susan riding one of these creatures in Prince Caspian, where is that mentioned in the book or film? The only place where I could possibly think about it occuring in the book is the holiday celebration with Aslan, Bacchus and his Maenads, Silenus, etc. . . but even then it would have been justifiable. If you're refering to Susan and Lucy riding Destrier in the film adaptation of Prince Caspian then you must remember that Destrier was not a talking beast.

Just for clarification, the exact quote from The Horse and His Boy is as follows:

There was a great and joyous meeting between Bree and Cor, and Bree, who was still in a rather subdued frame of mind, agreed to set out for Anvard at once: he and Hwin would cross into Narnia on the following day. All four bade an affectionate farewell to the Hermit and promised that they would soon visit him again. By about the middle of the morning they were on their way. The Horses had expected that Aravis and Cor would ride, but Cor explained that except in war, where everyone must do what he can do best, no one in Narnia or Archenland ever dreamed of mounting a Talking Horse.

As for Eustace not knowing about dragons, this is never said in the book or in the film adaptation of The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. In both book and film, it says that Eustace never believed in dragons. There is a huge difference in belief and knowledge. Eustace could have very easily (and very likely had) heard of dragons, and knew of them, without believing in them. This is much the same of people in our world, who know a great deal about such creatures, but don't actually believe in them (unless you are a truly magical sort of person who sits outside waiting to see a tree start moving, or to see a Centaur walking through your woods )

[Lady Galadriel]

*pulls out the book VDT and looks up Eustace and dragons*

He never said the word Dragon to himself. Nor would it have made things better if he had.
But perhaps if he had known something about dragons...

~ Voyage of the Dawn Treader, page 69 in my edition, Chapter VI, The Adventures of Eustace

Most of us know what we should expect to find in a dragon's lair, but, as I said before, Eustace had read only the wrong books. They had a lot to say about exports and imports and governments and drains, but they were weak on dragons.

Same chapter, page 71 in my edition

I think that while Eustace knows nothing about dragons, the book says nothing about him never hearing about them (although it DOES seem, the way he acts in the chapter, that he never has heard of them). I just thought it might be a good idea to bring in some book quotes on it.


As for Aslan saying "We can never know what would have happened, Lucy," there's something I can't resist pointing out: this line is inconsistent with the book Prince Caspian. The real quote is below, from Chapter 10, "Return of the Lion," page 142 in my book:

"You mean," said Lucy rather faintly, "that it would have turned out all right--somehow? But how? Please, Aslan! Am I not to know?"

"To know what would have happened, child?" said Aslan. "No. Nobody is ever told that."

So while Aslan would tell someone else "what would have happened" is something that always puzzled me. My point is that the inconsistency between book PC and movie PC is something I do not agree with.

[wolfloversk]

As for Susan riding one of these creatures in Prince Caspian, where is that mentioned in the book or film?

That would be from the scene in the movie during the castle raid. Glenstorm lets Susan ride him, but this would fit under the time of war theory.

As for Aslan saying "We can never know what would have happened, Lucy," there's something I can't resist pointing out: this line is inconsistent with the book Prince Caspian. The real quote is below, from Chapter 10, "Return of the Lion," page 142 in my book:

"You mean," said Lucy rather faintly, "that it would have turned out all right--somehow? But how? Please, Aslan! Am I not to know?"

"To know what would have happened, child?" said Aslan. "No. Nobody is ever told that."

So while Aslan would tell someone else "what would have happened" is something that always puzzled me. My point is that the inconsistency between book PC and movie PC is something I do not agree with.

That's interesting, and makes me feel a bit better- but this does bring us back to the fact that he did tell Digory what would have happened.

A few more slight incorrectnessess from the films:

1) "High King and Queen of Narnia" - Sorry Mr. Apted but the High Kingship isn't hereditary. It'll be interesting to see if he changed that on purpose or not

2) "Every year you grow, so shall I." -I believe the second part is "You will find me bigger" in the book. This is partly a matter of interpretation, but moist fans agree that he wasn't being so literal.

[Louloudi the Centaur]

I have two things that would fit in this category from The Silver Chair. A possible error and possible plot hole are the names.

1. Plot hole? Could Caspian had been saved from his illness? Lucy had a cordial that could heal almost any injury or illness, and she even had some left in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Unless she ran out somehow? Thoughts?

2. Error with book and timeline? According to one timeline and accurate sources, Caspian X was said to have died at age 66. However, during the third chapter of The Silver Chair, I found some conflicting information.
Eustace said," And now apparently it's been about seventy years-- Narnian years-- since I was here last." Since Caspian was about 16 years old in VDT, he would have been 86 years old when he died, not 66 according to the timeline. Thoughts or opinions?

[Lady Galadriel]

Oh, I thought Caspian died of old age, not a mysterious illness. Old age would be something Lucy's cordial couldn't cure.

That's interesting, and makes me feel a bit better- but this does bring us back to the fact that he did tell Digory what would have happened.

Yes, I guess I'm not sure what happened with that inconsistency in the books. I've just noticed in my somewhat-different-topic point was that for Aslan to say that "We could never know what would have happened" is an inconsistency with the books in itself because not only is the quote different in the book Prince Caspian, but he told Digory in MN what would have happened (so clearly Aslan knew). Did I manage to write that very clearly?

[wolfloversk]

He did die of old age (at least according to the original text... I never read the Old American Version of SC... though I just bought a copy)

But to me 86 makes more sense than 66 though I suppose lifespans for people might have been shorter in Narnia since it was similar to a middle age society- in which you were lucky to make it to 45!

[Lilygloves]

"You mean," said Lucy rather faintly, "that it would have turned out all right--somehow? But how? Please, Aslan! Am I not to know?"

"To know what would have happened, child?" said Aslan. "No. Nobody is ever told that."

It could be argued that nobody is ever told what would have happened in that circumstance. Nobody is ever told what would have happened if Lucy had followed Aslan the first time.

I noticed that Susan's horn was on board the Dawn Treader in the movie, but it was supposed to have been left with Trumpkin back at Cair Paravel. It wouldn't have bothered me, until I realized that they would have used it in their time of need. Heaven knows there were many times of need during their voyage.
Something I was surprised that wasn't mentioned on the NW podcast was that they fought on the Lone Islands even though they specifically said not to and Caspian said, "I am your king!" even though they specifically said not to in the book. And the whole fight with the sea serpent that Reepicheep said not to fight with in the book. That whole thing really upsets me.

[Louloudi the Centaur]

As a response to those saying Caspian didn't die of illness, but of old age, I have contradicting evidence from my version in The Silver Chair Ch. 4

""Oh yes, I'm coming of course. Might as well, you see. I don't suppose we shall ever see the King back in Narnia, now that he's set off for foreign parts; and he had a nasty cough."

So could Lucy have run out of cordial?

A new plot hole came to me from VDT Ch 8. While Caspian, Lucy, Edmund, Eustace, and Reepicheep are exploring Deathwater/ Goldwater Island, there is a list of items that they found. Among them include: a helmet, a dagger, and... Narnia coins? What would a Telmarine have "Narnian Trees" as currency? Unless the Telmarines decided to keep the Narnia currency for some reason?

[waggawerewolf27]

The Narnian coins would have been coined before Miraz's reign I think. Since there were plenty of trees in Narnia, I suppose that they might reasonably stay on a coin, especially in times when kings were not so biased against Old Narnians etc as was Miraz. Besides, Miraz had other things to do than worry about numismatics. Like getting rid of his brother's supporters.

2) "We can never know what would've happened, Lucy.":

I think this quote, or one very similar, is also from VDT (book), from when Lucy says the eavesdropping spell. Aslan tells Digory what would have happened because Digory needs to know the difference between wrong actions done in the wrong way and right actions done in the right way. The former have consequences, many of them unforeseen. A right choice leads to happier consequences.

But Digory did the right thing which in part cancelled out the wrong he did earlier in Charn and subsequently. He didn't give in to the Witch's temptation - the second time. Unlike Lucy with the eavesdropping spell, or not being strong enough to assert her leadership to follow Aslan.

[cipher]

Have anyone ever thought that Lewis wrote the story as he comes up? That he never had the whole story under wrap when he wrote them? Even if he DID had it, it is very easy to make mistakes and continuity errors.

[Graymouser]

About 300 years have passed between the conquest of Narnia and VDT, so those are pretty old coins.

Besides, the Telmarines tried to wipe out all memory of Old Narnia- wouldn't those coins have been melted and recast? Not to mention they especially hated trees.

Maybe the old coins were still in circulation on the Lone Islands ? Lord Restimar could have picked them up there.

Since the Telmarines also hated the sea and they appeared to have maintained only a nominal suzerainty over the Islands, the Lone Islanders might have kept minting the old-style coins. After all, the old coins would have been in circulation for at least a thousand years, from the time of the Pevensies's rule- people on the Isles might have preferred them to these new-fangled ones coming from outside conquerors who barely had contact with them.
......
Of course, cipher, but that's the fun part- you have to try to think up ways to fill in or reconcile the discrepancies while staying within the Canon.

[sweeetlilgurlie]

As a response to those saying Caspian didn't die of illness, but of old age, I have contradicting evidence from my version in The Silver Chair Ch. 4

""Oh yes, I'm coming of course. Might as well, you see. I don't suppose we shall ever see the King back in Narnia, now that he's set off for foreign parts; and he had a nasty cough."

So could Lucy have run out of cordial?

Keep in mind, Lou, that you're quoting Puddleglum, the eternal pessimist who was convinced that they would all die of snow or rain or falling into gorges or backstabbing. I wouldn't be surprised if the king didn't have any cough of the sort, or if he did, it wasn't an expression of him dying, for contrary to what movies would have us believe, coughs are not signs of fatal illness in real life.

It's much more likely that Puddleglum was just being pessimistic, as usual.

[wolfloversk]

...""Oh yes, I'm coming of course. Might as well, you see. I don't suppose we shall ever see the King back in Narnia, now that he's set off for foreign parts; and he had a nasty cough."

So could Lucy have run out of cordial?

Keep in mind, Lou, that you're quoting Puddleglum, the eternal pessimist who was convinced that they would all die of snow or rain or falling into gorges or backstabbing. I wouldn't be surprised if the king didn't have any cough of the sort, or if he did, it wasn't an expression of him dying,...

Whether it is or isn't... can her cordial be used for illness? I know it healed Eustace, but besides him... is it for illness and injuries or just injuries?

[DiGoRyKiRkE]

As it worked with Eustace's seasickness, logically it would have to work on other illnesses.