12 – The Queen of Underland

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12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Jul 02, 2017 6:25 pm

1. a. (Glumpuddle’s question) Why is Jill the first one to succumb to the witch’s magic? Why is Scrubb the second? How come Puddleglum is able to fight the magic longer?
b. (Pattertwig’s Pal’s question) How do you see the scene where the witch is enchanting the prince, the children, and Puddleglum? Is there an order in which they succumb to the spell? If so what? What do we learn about each of them from this scene?

2. How would you describe the sun and a lion to someone who had not seen them. Do you think you would fare better than the Prince and Scrubb?

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

6. How do you think the scene will be adapted?
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 09, 2017 12:53 am

Now the crunch in SC has come. Prince Rilian, who, even before he was released from the Silver Chair, has admitted he met the travellers by the Giant's Bridge, is about to leave with Puddleglum, Scrubb and Pole. But the Queen of Underland has arrived belatedly, and now we see how LOTGK operates. She is white with rage, but masters herself. The Prince leads off first, detailing how he has recovered from his troubles and how he rejects her plans to subjugate another country, killing that country's leaders, to enable the Prince's recovery from what she says is his malady.

1. a. (Glumpuddle’s question) Why is Jill the first one to succumb to the witch’s magic? Why is Scrubb the second? How come Puddleglum is able to fight the magic longer?

Yes, throughout this scene it is Puddleglum who has the most to say, as well as Scrubb. The witch who strums a mandolin, and who has put some sort of powder on the fire, denies everything she is told. There is no such place as Narnia, she didn't meet the three travellers by the Giant's Bridge (even though even the Prince said she did), and Prince Rilian isn't the King's son of Narnia. Jill is the one who has least to say, mainly to assert that she doesn't come from that world, but the incense and the thrumming are stopping her from thinking clearly. And it is Jill who mentions Aslan. Jill would be the easiest for LOTGK to overcome, to be sure, due to her relative unfamiliarity with the Narnian World, and also due to her previous unwillingness to doubt LOTGK. And if she is physically smaller than her companions, she may succumb first anyway.

b. (Pattertwig’s Pal’s question) How do you see the scene where the witch is enchanting the prince, the children, and Puddleglum? Is there an order in which they succumb to the spell? If so what? What do we learn about each of them from this scene?

But I disagree that there is any sort of order about how they all are affected by the incense and the thrumming. Jill, Scrubb and the Prince seem to go down together, being all affected by the miasma in the room and the monotonous sound effects. The Prince has been recently enchanted, and he needs time to recuperate fully. Besides, even though he is a Narnian native, like Puddleglum, he shares a human ancestry with two of his rescuers. Scrubb has done the best he can, but both he and Jill are succumbing to the LOTGK's methods. Only the non-human Puddleglum seems able to resist LOTGK to any great extent.

2. How would you describe the sun and a lion to someone who had not seen them. Do you think you would fare better than the Prince and Scrubb?

You meant Scrubb, the Prince and Jill, don't you? It was Jill who mentioned Aslan, and Lions. But no, I don't think I'd fare any better than any of them. I've met bullies like LOTGK. Who would half-mockingly insist that Jill must be the Queen of Somewhere else - all the better to ridicule her, even though Jill truthfully denies it. The Press and a bunch of others may do this sort of thing all the time. :( Not to mention people who unaccountably deny where they were or what they were doing at the time. Or who may deny the reality of anything they are told. Unfortunately for Jill and friends, they haven't the luxury of such denial whilst LOTGK is around.

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?

Puddleglum makes the best points of the lot, including stamping out that fire. And boy does that provoke a reaction.

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

This is an action-packed scene that doesn't need too much alteration to make a really good movie. There is one small alteration I'd like to make. The green powder the witch puts on the fire doesn't have to result in green smoke, green mist or green anything. There is a yellow substance called cochineal, which, when used as a food colouring usually changes the cake, icing or whatever to red. Can't something like that be done if it is necessary for green powder to produce a coloured mist? Meanwhile why have a colour at all? It isn't mentioned in the book as far as I can see.

6. How do you think the scene will be adapted?

~x( I'd rather not think about it. @-) Anhun and a few others might have a better idea. :-$
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Jul 09, 2017 5:52 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:You meant Scrubb, the Prince and Jill, don't you?

No I meant what I said. Jill did not explain what a lion was she just said Aslan's name. The Prince tried to explain the sun and Scrubb tried to explain what a lion.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jul 10, 2017 8:53 pm

Oops, I stand corrected. :ymblushing: And I apologise. It was Jill who said Aslan but Eustace who tried to explain what a lion was.

However, I still think I couldn't have explained either a lion or the Sun better than what Eustace and Rilian said, because LOTGK was too intent on dismissing, ridiculing, negating and denying anything any of them said, to push her own worldview. And can you imagine her apologising for an error? Or conceding that she did actually meet Jill, Eustace and Puddleglum on the Giant bridge? Or that there was indeed a place called Narnia, just over the Shribble, which demarcated the southern border of Ettinsmoor, which she herself mentioned at the Giant Bridge?

I hope that in the movie, Puddleglum's speech, which makes the best points for not agreeing with LOTGK, is actually said by Puddleglum and not given to any of the other characters opposing her. I also hope that the snake in the new production looks a lot more fearsome than the one in the BBC TV Silver Chair.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby shastastwin » Jul 18, 2017 5:43 am

I had a thought while listening to this scene on the Focus on the Family adaptation earlier: what do you all think of the fact that the children think of their lives on Earth and Narnia and all being "like a dream" just as the Pevensies in LWW said the lamppost was like "something from a dream, or the dream of a dream"? What makes this experience different from the other (aside from the witch)?
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Ryadian » Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

1. a. (Glumpuddle’s question) Why is Jill the first one to succumb to the witch’s magic? Why is Scrubb the second? How come Puddleglum is able to fight the magic longer?
b. (Pattertwig’s Pal’s question) How do you see the scene where the witch is enchanting the prince, the children, and Puddleglum? Is there an order in which they succumb to the spell? If so what? What do we learn about each of them from this scene?

Of the four of them, Jill has the least experience with magic and would know the least about how to resist it, though I think it's important to note that even after she lost notice of the fact that she was under an enchantment, she still thought to mention Aslan. Given that they all give in at one point or another (even Puddleglum joins them in saying "There never was a sun"), but still manage to fight back at some point before the very end, it's hard to say what order it actually happened in. I think the reason why Puddleglum was the only one who was able to work up the strength to put out the fire, though, is because Puddleglum has been the most stalwart and focused of them all all along. He was the most resistant about the detour in Harfang, he was the one who convinced the others to free Rilian, and of course there's the fact that he's already been proven quite capable of finding hope in even the darkest circumstances (even if he's imagining the dark circumstances).


2. How would you describe the sun and a lion to someone who had not seen them. Do you think you would fare better than the Prince and Scrubb?
The sun would be very hard to explain, especially since it's unclear how Narnian astronomy works so our explanation for how the sun works may not apply in Narnia. I certainly think there could have been a better way to describe a lion, but given how far long the enchantment had already gone at that point, I can hardly pretend I would've done any better.

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?
This is a hard question, since we know full well that the Witch is a liar and that everything Puddleglum is holding onto is real. How would I feel if someone in real life was declaring that they were going to believe in a fantasy world because it was better than the real world? At the same time, it's remarkable and heroic that he's able to hang on to this in face of such enchantment which can twist your own mind against you. I guess, ultimately, Puddleglum makes excellent points because what he believes is, in fact, true.

One thought I have about the adaptation (I don't expect it to happen, but I'd like it to ;)) ) is I'd like to see some of the "shivering" Rilian has when the Witch first appears after he's been freed. I don't remember the BBC one quite as well (it wasn't my favorite of the Narnia productions when I was younger ;)) ), but I know that in the FotF one, you almost get a sense that it's a relief for Rilian to get what he wants to say to the LotGK off his chest, and there's no indication to me that it took "great effort" to say it. I think it gives the scene a very different dynamic, and I'd like to see the book's version this time, especially since I think it gives Rilian a needed moment of characterization - that he's still feeling the effects of the enchantment, but he stands up to her anyways.
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Re: 12 – The Queen of Underland

Postby Hwinning » Aug 07, 2017 12:22 pm

3. What do you think of Puddleglum’s speech to the witch? Does he make good points?

Puddleglum's speech is hands down the most iconic monologue in the Chronicles of Narnia. When I first read it, it instantly gave me an answer to everyone who told me God wasn't real and that religion was a waste of time. He makes excellent points.

5. How would you like the scene where the witch turns into a serpent and they fight her to be adapted?

I actually want it to be a typical, Hollywood, epic combat scene.
Mind you, this is the only scene this level of violence will be accepted. And please don't extend it longer than it needs to be.

6. How do you think the scene will be adapted?

I honestly think the green mist will make a comeback. And, even though this opinion is going to be very unpopular, I'm welcome to that. It is both logical and visual here.

shastastwin wrote:I had a thought while listening to this scene on the Focus on the Family adaptation earlier: what do you all think of the fact that the children think of their lives on Earth and Narnia and all being "like a dream" just as the Pevensies in LWW said the lamppost was like "something from a dream, or the dream of a dream"? What makes this experience different from the other (aside from the witch)?


It has been too short of a time in the world of Narnia for Earth to seem like a dream. And, since they are still in the same world as Narnia, those experiences are not like a dream either. For example, in VoDT, the characters weren't in Narnia but they could remember it perfectly well.
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