3 – The Sailing of the King

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3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » May 08, 2017 2:45 am

1. What do you think of Glimfeather?

2. How do you feel about Glimfeather often ending sentences with “ooo”? Funny? Cheesy?

3. What do you think of Trumpkin? Has he changed from Prince Caspian?

4. Why doesn’t Glimfeather introduce himself to the children?

5. Jill’s Narnian clothes “were the kind that not only felt nice, but looked nice and smelled nice and made nice sounds when you moved as well.” Can you relate to how awesome that is?

6. Scrubb says finding Caspian in his eighties is “worse than coming back and finding him dead.” Do you think this is how you would feel?

7. Why does it never occur to Jill to simply write down the signs?

8. Why does Lewis bother to describe the story Jill and Scrubb hear over dinner? Is it anything more than a fun tease for The Horse and His Boy?
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » May 10, 2017 4:46 pm

2. How do you feel about Glimfeather often ending sentences with “ooo”? Funny? Cheesy?

I think it's fun and clever, but it also makes me glad that he is not a main character... it would get really old after a while. ;))

3. What do you think of Trumpkin? Has he changed from Prince Caspian?

Love this scene with Trumpkin! So funny. :)) In a way, though, they almost feel like two different characters to me. For one, I imagine Archimedes's voice from Disney's The Sword in the Stone for Trumpkin's lines here, and I never imagine that in PC. (Of course, voices do change with age, but still.) While I feel like they are still in the some sense the same person, the character we meet here is the product of many years of acting as regent and living comfortably in Cair Paravel's wonderfully hospitable court, and that's a far cry from the dwarf we meet in PC who is in the midst of a war.

I wonder how the Pevensies would have felt meeting Trumpkin again, compared to Eustace's reaction to old King Caspian? I feel sure it would have been a merrier reunion, but I think it would still have been something of a shock to them.

5. Jill’s Narnian clothes “were the kind that not only felt nice, but looked nice and smelled nice and made nice sounds when you moved as well.” Can you relate to how awesome that is?

I've never worn Narnian clothes—I really ought to scoot over to the Costuming forum and see about remedying that ;))—but clothes that feel good and look good are lovely!

6. Scrubb says finding Caspian in his eighties is “worse than coming back and finding him dead.” Do you think this is how you would feel?

I can sympathize with him. It's that idea of wanting to remember people as they were, back during happier times. Only a short time ago Eustace had seen Caspian in his prime, and to see him again so near the end of his life after suffering many years of terrible grief... it must have been an awful shock. I would have felt sick as well. I wouldn't have wished that they had already been dead instead—I would have wanted to speak with them—but for that reason I can understand why Eustace might feel the way he did, considering that Caspian has already set sail before he even had the chance to recognize him. It seems he has no chance to speak with Caspian now and is left with only a deeply unpleasant image of his advanced age and health that he would rather forget. From his perspective, there was little good in seeing him alive again when he seems so near the door of death and he could not even say goodbye or make his presence known at all; it was only a disturbing picture of grief and mortality and not even an opportunity to speak with an old friend.

(Now I want to go pick up PC and refresh my memory on the Pevensies' reactions to finding out they've been gone for hundreds of years and all their old friends are long gone...)

7. Why does it never occur to Jill to simply write down the signs?

At the moment, she seems too dazzled by all of the colors and comforts and creatures of Cair Paravel to think of anything practical like that. Going forward, she doesn't really have a chance to do that once they leave Puddleglum's wigwam, unless someone happened to have a pen and paper on them. Still, I probably would've tried to write the bullet points on my arm with mud or something. ;))

8. Why does Lewis bother to describe the story Jill and Scrubb hear over dinner? Is it anything more than a fun tease for The Horse and His Boy?

It does make me wonder if Lewis was sure that he was going to write HHB at this point! Occasionally Lewis will make little asides like this, hinting at some untold story, but I imagine that he was rather far along in the development of Shasta and Aravis's tale by this point. (Can you imagine if he hadn't written HHB, though, and that mention was all we ever got? The curiosity would have killed me. ;)))
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby waggawerewolf27 » May 10, 2017 7:59 pm

2. How do you feel about Glimfeather often ending sentences with “ooo”? Funny? Cheesy?

It could become cheesy, but how well does anyone expect an animal or a bird to speak? In accents more suitable for Hollywood or BBC commentary? I know parrots and cockatoos mimic humans quite well. Especially swear words. =)) Lyre birds and mockingbirds do a fantastic mimicry job of a range of sounds, but lyre birds, at any rate, are wild creatures in what is left of the Bush. But Brownies and guides aside, owls toowit towhoo, and that is their means of communication. And if it is tooowhooo much, then that is what owls doooo. Poor Trumpkin. :ymdevil:

3. What do you think of Trumpkin? Has he changed from Prince Caspian?

Yes, Trumpkin really has changed from PC. In that book, he was quite the athletic young dwarf, not easily taken in by "old wives' tales", but as true as steel once he committed himself. He had none of the cantankerousness of Nikabrik, and he has been for many years Caspian's right-hand man (oops, dwarf). Trumpkin was a generous character, taking on the mission of going to Cair Paravel, where he met the Pevensies, knowing when to take orders and doing his best to be useful.

Rose-tree Dryad wrote:I wonder how the Pevensies would have felt meeting Trumpkin again, compared to Eustace's reaction to old King Caspian? I feel sure it would have been a merrier reunion, but I think it would still have been something of a shock to them.


It must have been quite a shock to the Pevensies to have found their old friends had long gone, that centuries had passed and that they were, themselves, ancient history in PC. Somehow I think that they would be more prepared to accept that Trumpkin would not get any younger if they got to meet him again. Because time only goes forward. But the deafness might spoil the occasion somewhat, especially if his memory was going as well.

For here, in this chapter, Trumpkin has indeed become old, deaf and crotchety. The trouble is with losing one's hearing, that those who do, often don't have any insight into their condition, and blame everyone else's mumbling for what is a failure of their own body. Get their hearing tested and hearing aids installed? Forget it. They are having too much fun not hearing. Of course if anyone yells at them, they immediately tell those who do, not to yell. 8-| All this becomes rather tiresome after a while. Especially for those of the Narnians who can hear quite well, but have their own peculiarities of speaking to overcome when communicating. Even humans have problems with talking, such as with stuttering, lisping etc, even when they have breath enough to talk at all. :(

Yes, meeting Trumpkin again - or for the first time in Jill and Eustace's case - is a bit of fun, but underneath the fun, there is at least one serious issue involved in his being deaf. It slows down communication whilst information is repeated ad nauseam. Although Trumpkin may still be 100% reliable, he might not really be the best person to run Narnia, whilst Caspian has sailed off to the Lone Islands. It also seems that Trumpkin has become somewhat immobile. The donkey cart is a good idea for him, but there is a Lewis story lurking about a donkey in another Narnia book or two. :-s

It really looks like at this stage, that both Jill and Eustace have missed the boat in more than one sense. And that their mission might be more urgent than appears at first.

4. Why doesn’t Glimfeather introduce himself to the children?

Maybe Glimfeather might not see the need to introduce himself. He seems the sort of outgoing owl who knows everyone, who is known to everyone, and he also seems to be a bit of a leader, the sort who is more like to openly challenge strangers than to wait until they challenge him. Being an owl, he doesn't draw attention to himself, and knows the benefit of concealment and not being too open about who he is. Perhaps he is the animal version of a private eye. ;) He probably noticed (and heard) the children long before they landed, and was clearly listening into their conversation. Did I mention that owls have such good hearing that they can hear a mouse's heartbeat from a distance?

5. Jill’s Narnian clothes “were the kind that not only felt nice, but looked nice and smelled nice and made nice sounds when you moved as well.” Can you relate to how awesome that is?

Wouldn't that be nice? I expect they are also the sort of comfortable clothes that don't trip one up, which have pockets to keep things in (eg keys, torch etc), and include shoes that it is possible to work and walk long distances in comfortably without breaking one's ankles, and still look absolutely gorgeous to wear. \:D/

6. Scrubb says finding Caspian in his eighties is “worse than coming back and finding him dead.” Do you think this is how you would feel?

Not really how I'd feel, since I'm a decade closer to my eighties, myself, and I am quite used to "old" friends, being, well, old. But time can be relative, even in one's senior years. What is shocking for Eustace is that he hasn't aged himself at anything like the same rate, nor is he in a good position yet to understand that it is more than time, itself, that has caused Caspian to look so old and frail. I expect when I meet someone I've known that they will merely look their age, or younger. But sometimes people I've known, if affected by tragedy, illness or sadness could look far worse than is indicated by the mere number of years they have been alive, even if they are actually younger than myself.

Poor Scrubb thinks he has lost the valued friend he used to know, and we have to wait yet to find out the truth of the matter. Yes, Scrubb was to greet an old friend but he wasn't expecting that the friend would be so elderly. And now he has also lost the only chance he will have to talk to Caspian the Seafarer about their adventures aboard the Dawn Treader. For Scrubb, it is like getting something back he treasured that is now broken.

A question: Is Caspian really in his eighties? Or does he just look like it? For example, in PC, wasn't Trumpkin an adult whilst Prince Caspian was the same age as Peter Pevensie? And yet here in this chapter, when I reread the book, Trumpkin was supposed to be the same age as Prince Caspian, but looks more hale and hearty.

7. Why does it never occur to Jill to simply write down the signs?

Mostly because she doesn't carry paper and pen around which might have helped. She tries to memorize the signs, but keeps forgetting them, and I wonder why. It seems every time Eustace asks her what they are, she gets a mental block. Or is that just his impatience with her? But why not Eustace writing them down, himself? What happened to Eustace's journal that he used to keep on board the Dawn Treader?

8. Why does Lewis bother to describe the story Jill and Scrubb hear over dinner? Is it anything more than a fun tease for The Horse and His Boy?

Yes it could be a "fun tease for the Horse and his Boy", but it might be a bit more. For one thing, the story harks back to a time when the Pevensies were there in Narnia, and it might be nice for Jill and Eustace to know about that particular adventure, especially if they ever get to meet these Pevensies. They might like to know that they weren't the only ones in Narnia to have travelled long distances on a quest to save the day.
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » May 11, 2017 2:55 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:But why not Eustace writing them down, himself? What happened to Eustace's journal that he used to keep on board the Dawn Treader?


Ooh, that's a good thought. I wonder if Eustace wasn't put-off the idea of journaling, though, after his undragoning... it brought back too many unpleasant memories of his unpleasant former self! ;))

One other thought that occurred to me as to why they never wrote down the signs, which I will put in spoiler tags as it references some information yet to be revealed... if that paper had been lost (which could easily happen traveling through rough country with unforeseen dangers), then it might potentially be found by a well-meaning Narnian search party, meant to rescue the questers and bring them back to Narnia per Trumpkin's orders. It's like a map telling them where to go look for them! Or imagine that they had been captured by some enemy during their journey north... you wouldn't want them finding a paper with Aslan's signs on it. After leaving Cair Paravel under the cover of night, Eustace and Jill are in effect on a secret mission, and the secret is safer if they carry it only in their heads.
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby waggawerewolf27 » May 14, 2017 5:38 pm

Those were good thoughts about Eustace, Rose, and his seemingly discontinued VDT habit of keeping a journal. It seems that now Eustace has changed his VDT tune somewhat, he might find it risky to carry around diaries, journals etc in the playground at Experiment House. The bullies might very well latch onto such a possibly incriminating document to get Eustace, himself, in heaps of trouble. On the occasion where he met Jill his schoolbooks would have been firmly kept in the classroom, perhaps, or in a locker, somewhere.

When Jill landed and caught up with Eustace, she was still a fair distance from the wharf where the ship Caspian sailed on was moored. Would there really have been any hope of either Eustace or Jill getting to Caspian in time to prevent his sailing, especially as the book says Jill forgot Aslan and the signs for about half an hour whilst looking around?
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby Reepicheep775 » May 18, 2017 9:04 am

1. What do you think of Glimfeather?
I actually think Glimfeather is one of the more forgettable characters in Narnia. Owls are my favourite type of animals, so I'm a little biased in his favour, but apart from his wonderful dialogue with Trumpkin, there isn't much about him that sticks out.

2. How do you feel about Glimfeather often ending sentences with “ooo”? Funny? Cheesy?
I don't mind Glimfeather's way of talking. I'm not crazy about it, but I wouldn't call it cheesy either. It's... pleasant, I guess? :p

One thing though... I'm normally good at separating the voices of movie characters from the voices of book characters that I have in my head, but in the case of Glimfeather, I hear Warwick Davis every time.

3. What do you think of Trumpkin? Has he changed from Prince Caspian?
I noticed that Trumpkin has no difficulty believing in the Other Place where the children come from. After all he'd seen during the events of PC, it wouldn't make any sense for him to not believe in other worlds, but it's the sort of idea that I think PC Trumpkin would have scoffed at.
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby Anhun » May 29, 2017 12:16 pm

6.

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Not really how I'd feel, since I'm a decade closer to my eighties, myself, and I am quite used to "old" friends, being, well, old. But time can be relative, even in one's senior years. What is shocking for Eustace is that he hasn't aged himself at anything like the same rate, nor is he in a good position yet to understand that it is more than time, itself, that has caused Caspian to look so old and frail . . . Poor Scrubb thinks he has lost the valued friend he used to know, and we have to wait yet to find out the truth of the matter. . . .


I still have far to go before I reach 80, but I kind of feel the way you do. I would find it harder to deal with my friend that I last saw a few months ago being dead than being elderly. At the same time, I can also understand that it would be shocking, especially when you consider that the difference is not just old age in a person who was recently young, but loss of spirits in one who had been so full of life and enthusiasm.

waggawerewolf27 wrote:A question: Is Caspian really in his eighties? Or does he just look like it? For example, in PC, wasn't Trumpkin an adult whilst Prince Caspian was the same age as Peter Pevensie? And yet here in this chapter, when I reread the book, Trumpkin was supposed to be the same age as Prince Caspian, but looks more hale and hearty.


I've always wondered about this myself. Not just when you consider Trumpkin, but when you consider Rilian.
He was a youth ten (Narnian) years prior, which means that he shouldn't be beyond his 30's in SC. This indicates that more than 30 years passed between the time that Caspian met his future wife, and the birth of their only child. I suppose it's possible that stars and dwarfs don't age the same way that humans do.


8.

One thing to bear in mind is that Lewis wrote HHB before he wrote SC, although the latter was published first. The reference to Cor and Aravis was probably originally intended as a call-back, not a preview/teaser.
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » May 31, 2017 9:17 am

waggawerewolf27 wrote:When Jill landed and caught up with Eustace, she was still a fair distance from the wharf where the ship Caspian sailed on was moored. Would there really have been any hope of either Eustace or Jill getting to Caspian in time to prevent his sailing, especially as the book says Jill forgot Aslan and the signs for about half an hour whilst looking around?


Looking at the book, there doesn't appear to be a long amount of time in between the ship moving out of the quay and Glimfeather being told why Eustace and Jill are in Narnia. Honestly, one thing that bugs me a little is that Glimfeather can fly and he could've taken wing to catch up with the ship once he realized that Eustace and Jill were on the Lion's business. Or he could have told a swifter bird to go stop them and turn the ship back. Or the merpeople or naiads! We've got possibilities here. :P The whole point of Caspian's voyage was to try and see Aslan again, and here's two children saying they've been sent by none other than the Lion! I suppose, however, that this missed opportunity can be chalked up to Glimfeather's sleepiness and thus his first thought was to go speak to Trumpkin rather than try to send someone to turn the ship back. Still a bit maddening, though. ;))

Reepicheep775 wrote:One thing though... I'm normally good at separating the voices of movie characters from the voices of book characters that I have in my head, but in the case of Glimfeather, I hear Warwick Davis every time.


I watched a few scenes from the BBC version of The Silver Chair recently and I was completely horrified when I "heard" BBC Aslan's voice when reading the first few lines of his conversation with Jill. (Sorry, Twig's. ;))) It took a bit of effort to chase that voice out of my brain. :P And then when reading the fifth chapter the other day, I kept hearing Mark Rylance's dour voice from Bridge of Spies thanks to fantasia_kitty suggesting him over in Cast and Character Discussion... and while it worked pretty well for the character, it wasn't the way I imagine Puddleglum to talk! Flipping ahead and re-reading Puddleglum's "magnum opus" helped reboot my brain and get the old voice I'm accustomed to back. :P I'm kind of tempted to record myself reading the book, just to try to keep track of the inflection and speaking styles that I imagine, now that The Silver Chair is going to be made and I've already had these two scares. ;))
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jun 03, 2017 11:58 pm

1. What do you think of Glimfeather?

I think he is full of confidence in himself, possibly because he is an owl leader of sorts. But maybe he is just a bit brash. Quite brave enough to accost Eustace and Jill, since they are strangers, but since they appear to be quarrelling when he interrupts, he can't help but notice them. It appears to be an awkward time of day for owls like Glimfeather, and when he appears to be at his most owlish. I'd think he was "up to something" and not to be trusted, especially as he warns them off Trumpkin, but he turns out to be otherwise, later on. Trumpkin doesn't seem to think Glimfeather as impressive as Glimfeather thinks he, himself, is. ;) If Trumpkin could be described as a "crusty and strict teacher" who won't bend the rules when necessary, then Glimfeather is maybe a slightly pushy senior prefect.

Anhun wrote:..... especially when you consider that the difference is not just old age in a person who was recently young, but loss of spirits in one who had been so full of life and enthusiasm.


About 30 years ago, due to illness, I shared a hospital ward with a woman who was clearly dying. She was in a lot of pain, and had forgotten much of the English she had used for years. A welfare worker, who could speak her native language, visited her to help, along with a man who looked about a decade older than myself. It was startling to find out that this man was actually her husband, and not her son, which I thought at first. That woman had really white hair and looked old enough to be in her 80's, so I think something like that would have been also true of Caspian.
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby Ryadian » Jun 19, 2017 12:03 pm

2. How do you feel about Glimfeather often ending sentences with “ooo”? Funny? Cheesy?
Conceptually, I should like the idea, since it helps us with the idea that talking beasts in this world aren't just humans in animal bodies - they're still beasts and behave, to some degree, like beasts. However, this is one case where
I think I'm influenced by previous adaptations, and... I'm not impressed by how either the BBC or FotF versions did the "tu-whoos", though the rhyming at least worked. Perhaps the new movie will change my mind. ;))
SHOW SPOILER "The other books"
Off the top of my head, Glimfeather and the owls also seem like the only beasts with a verbal tic reminiscent of the sounds the animal makes - which, on the one hand, helps make them unique (I've always had the idea that their society is very unusual compared to other talking beasts since they're nocturnal and seem to spend most of their time with themselves), but on the other hand, it does make it seem a bit more gimmick-y.


3. What do you think of Trumpkin? Has he changed from Prince Caspian?Aside from the obvious advances of age, and now that he has unquestioned faith in both Aslan and the "other Place" (which would only make sense after having had both proven to him in PC), I think Trumpkin is very much like he always was - rather stubborn and a bit impatient with others, but still warm-hearted at his core.

4. Why doesn’t Glimfeather introduce himself to the children?I suspect it's the same grogginess that he refers to repeatedly throughout the chapter. I know that if I'm tired, things like introducing myself to a stranger only occur to me well after it would have been useful. ;))

5. Jill’s Narnian clothes “were the kind that not only felt nice, but looked nice and smelled nice and made nice sounds when you moved as well.” Can you relate to how awesome that is?
Admittedly, I can. ;)) Admittedly, I tend not to care about how the clothes smell as long as they don't smell bad, but finding nice clothing that isn't restrictive is always a great feeling!

6. Scrubb says finding Caspian in his eighties is “worse than coming back and finding him dead.” Do you think this is how you would feel?
I think I would. I think it would be easier to imagine Caspian as having died exactly the same way that I remembered him would be easier than being reminded of what the ravages of time can do. Eustace did at least have a chance to say goodbye to Caspian last time, and given that
SHOW SPOILER "Prince Caspian/LWW"
the Pevensies probably told him about what it was like for them coming back to Narnia when everyone they'd ever known was dead, so he could at least sort of prepare for that possibility. I can see completely missing the possibility that he might come back and those he's known have gotten much, much older than he has.


7. Why does it never occur to Jill to simply write down the signs?
She's probably swept up in the delights of her first night in Narnia, at the palace. She mentions that she thinks they'll sleep well tonight - and, presumably, will have time to take care of such things in the morning.

8. Why does Lewis bother to describe the story Jill and Scrubb hear over dinner? Is it anything more than a fun tease for The Horse and His Boy?
Well, I suspect it being a tease for HaHB was a bit part of it. ;)) I also imagine it might be to help give a sense of history to the world, especially for Jill and new readers, who have only heard very sparse details from Eustace and have no idea of the possible scope.
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Re: 3 – The Sailing of the King

Postby TheLukeskywalker2 » Aug 05, 2017 1:48 pm

7) If I was given a set of instructions and was told to remember them, I would do everything. If the first thing that happens after that is a trip on air, I would just start writing it in the air over and over, so that whenever I got paper, my hand would have muscle memory for physically writing them down. However, if I had to guess, Jill forgot for most of the trip over the instructions, intrigued with what was happening around her. I'd have asked immediately "Who is the first person you saw?"

I'd guess that Jill forgot until later about the signs, and didn't remember them perfectly.
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