Chapter 14 The Beginning of the End of the World

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Chapter 14 The Beginning of the End of the World

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Oct 07, 2015 4:15 am

1. In the last chapter Lewis gave a fairly detailed description of the girl. Now using her as a reference, he describes the father. What differences does he point out? Why are these differences significant?

2. What does Ramandu mean by "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of"?

3. Do you think Caspian made the right choice in leaving Pittencream behind?

4. What would you have done in the crew's place: gone on the adventure or stayed behind?

5. How does it change your perception of Coriakin, Ramandu, and Ramandu's daughter to know they are stars?
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Re: Chapter 14 The Beginning of the End of the World

Postby aileth » Oct 16, 2016 9:46 pm

1. In the last chapter Lewis gave a fairly detailed description of the girl. Now using her as a reference, he describes the father. What differences does he point out? Why are these differences significant?
For one thing, the father is very old, the daughter is young; he shines from within, she does not. I wonder who stars marry? Evidently not another star, in this case--wouldn't she shine too?

2. What does Ramandu mean by "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of?"
There are quite a few instances where stars are synonymous with angels, particularly in Revelation. Is every star an angel? I don't know, nor exactly what it means, only that it is stated to be so. Think about humans, too: we are made of a certain number of molecules and atoms, a certain physical form--matter, in other words. But there is a whole lot more to a person than mere matter. And why not with stars?

3. Do you think Caspian made the right choice in leaving Pittencream behind?
He doesn't sound like a winner, does he? He was not wishing to go on for the right reasons at all, and his later career seems an indication of his poor character.

4. What would you have done in the crew's place: gone on the adventure or stayed behind?
Well, by the time I'd got that far, I probably would have said, "Let's go for it." It used to be that I would not truly be happy when hiking until I was on the way home, but when the goal was in sight, I would keep on.

5. How does it change your perception of Coriakin, Ramandu, and Ramandu's daughter to know they are stars?
They would have a very different perspective on life and the world, since they saw it as onlookers from outside, as it were. They must have seen a lot of folly and kindness, good deeds and bad. After all, they had centuries to observe and to absorb wisdom, much like the men before the Flood. Do you suppose that Ramandu and Coriakin would have been among the stars at the end of the world in Last Battle?

Now we are told that we are not to know the faults of stars, so what do we do but immediately begin to speculate! In LB, Roonwit the centaur says that the stars do not lie, with reference to the coming of Aslan. Now, that may not have been what Coriakin was punished for, but it is one possibility. If so, they seem to have similar faults to those of humans. Really, it makes you wonder: what mischief could stars get into?
Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away ... my days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle
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Re: Chapter 14 The Beginning of the End of the World

Postby Pattertwigs Pal » Oct 24, 2016 6:59 pm

1. In the last chapter Lewis gave a fairly detailed description of the girl. Now using her as a reference, he describes the father. What differences does he point out? Why are these differences significant?
The old man is not as slender as the girl. It makes sense that he would not be. They also are dressed in different colors. The similarities seem significant – the star and his daughter are about the same height. It seems to me that the daughter should be shorter.
aileth wrote:I wonder who stars marry? Evidently not another star, in this case--wouldn't she shine too?
Excellent point aileth! I have always thought of Ramandu’s daughter as not being a star but have had trouble backing it up with evidence. I can’t remember if I came up with the same idea as you before or not. :p
2. What does Ramandu mean by "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of"?
I like your comparison of it with humans, aileth. Stars are often assigned romantic and practical purposes so he could be referring to something like that. Although as I type that out it doesn’t seem deep enough or quite right. :P I guess anything is more than what it is made of – it is a creation of God.

3. Do you think Caspian made the right choice in leaving Pittencream behind?
If Caspian had based his decision solely on Pittencream’s being the last one I would say no because someone has to be last. However, I am assuming the that Caspian knew Pittencream only asking to come because he didn’t want to be alone. I think Caspian’s choice was justified. I suppose it was the right choice, but I do feel a little bad for Pittencream.

4. What would you have done in the crew's place: gone on the adventure or stayed behind?
Gone on the adventure. I probably would be scared but I would rather be with my companions than waiting and worrying about them.
5. How does it change your perception of Coriakin, Ramandu, and Ramandu's daughter to know they are stars?
Well, I’m not convinced Ramandu’s Daughter is a star. For Ramandu, it explains why he glows and adds some additional interest to him. The added information about Coriakin makes me realize he is not simply a wise, kind magician. At some point he broke the rules and was punished. He does seem to be accepting his punishment well and there doesn’t seem to be a rift between him and Aslan.

aileth wrote:Do you suppose that Ramandu and Coriakin would have been among the stars at the end of the world in Last Battle?

Now we are told that we are not to know the faults of stars, so what do we do but immediately begin to speculate! In LB, Roonwit the centaur says that the stars do not lie, with reference to the coming of Aslan. Now, that may not have been what Coriakin was punished for, but it is one possibility. If so, they seem to have similar faults to those of humans. Really, it makes you wonder: what mischief could stars get into?

I think it likely that Ramandu was among the stars unless he had already earned rest again. I think Coriakin would come through the door into stable, but whether as a star or a magician and ruler of the Dufflepuds I don’t know. Lying is one possibility. Maybe he tried to add his own steps to the dance.
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Re: Chapter 14 The Beginning of the End of the World

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Nov 12, 2016 9:37 pm

1. In the last chapter Lewis gave a fairly detailed description of the girl. Now using her as a reference, he describes the father. What differences does he point out? Why are these differences significant?

One is the colour of the father's clothes which Lewis depicts as if they are made of the silvery fleece of sheep. Sort of like woolly clouds, as the girl's dress resembles the blue of the sky. It is interesting they sing in unison, being both present in the morning, and I love that description of music being high and cold for the morning. Just like the chill that precedes the dawn. Does this father and daughter sing up what the day's weather will be, perhaps?

Unlike Pattertwig's Pal, I am quite used to the idea of children being as tall as or taller than fathers, all the more so as people shrink as they get older and more stooped and worn out. However, I didn't really notice that Ramandu shone but not his daughter. :ymblushing:

In the last chapter, The Three Sleepers, where we saw the girl first, we saw her alone, and she told them that her father would tell them how to break the spell. Did she get him to come because of the visitors, thus disturbing his rest? Or does he appear in the morning, regardless, to get that medicine daily? What do you think?

2. What does Ramandu mean by "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of"?

The term "star" describes much, including an extremely hot and bright, spinning mass of gases and elements, driven by nuclear energy and which emits bursts of energy that can disrupt telecommunications. For a long time people distinguished a difference between what they understood by stars and one particular star which is our Sun. Ramandu might well draw on this dichotomy, to answer Eustace. That difference between the Sun we know about and the stars, too distant to see without a telescope, is why we have so many ancient legends about the stars we are able to see in constellations. And that difference also explains why outstanding people who shine more than their fellows, who put in such stellar performances, and whose energy is emitted so spectacularly, might well be seen as "stars". And in Hollywood, of course they are. ;) All too often such "stars" well might have a different perspective of what the rest of the world might be like up in the exalted realms of stardom. Or so we are told.

3. Do you think Caspian made the right choice in leaving Pittencream behind?

Yes, I think Caspian did make the right choice. Pittencream doesn't seem to be very brave, and might well have been the ringleader in those who didn't want to go any further, simply because he didn't want to be left on Ramandu's Island, alone. It certainly suggests he was, when he got to be the last person, and only changed his mind at the last moment. I wonder what he would have done if they hadn't returned from their extra journey? And wouldn't he be too ashamed to show his face in Narnia, not having received his title of Dawn Treader, unlike his shipmates?

I can understand how dreary it would be being left behind, and how out of things he might have felt on the way back, until he got to the Lone Islands. But by then, he'd seen much of the journey, and would have heard at least some of the things they saw in the meantime. So by living on his traveller's tales he might have been well enough off. I find it rather funny that "he couldn't stand mice". =))

4. What would you have done in the crew's place: gone on the adventure or stayed behind?

I'm just rather glad that Caspian chose to ask people what they would like to do, and not get a doctor (Ramandu?) to give each member of the crew a medical first, or I might not have made the grade either. Yes, all being well, I'd want to go with the rest of the crew.

5. How does it change your perception of Coriakin, Ramandu, and Ramandu's daughter to know they are stars?

No it doesn't change my perception of them that much, since a lot of things are possible in Narnia that aren't possible in our world, despite "stars" being regarded as synonyms for "celebrities". At least we know that C.S.Lewis has decreed that the intimate details of their lives as stars are not to be discussed. :ymdevil: :p There is only one thing that puzzles me: Who is Ramandu's daughter's mother? And has Ramandu's daughter got enough human in her to become the mother of Caspian's children? :-\

aileth wrote:Now we are told that we are not to know the faults of stars, so what do we do but immediately begin to speculate! In LB, Roonwit the centaur says that the stars do not lie, with reference to the coming of Aslan. Now, that may not have been what Coriakin was punished for, but it is one possibility. If so, they seem to have similar faults to those of humans. Really, it makes you wonder: what mischief could stars get into?


Of course we speculate. I wonder, perhaps, if Ramandu's daughter really is his daughter? Is Ramandu her guardian, or step-father, instead? I would have thought that falling in love with a human would be one of those things that would be put into the "faults of stars" basket. Somehow, just like Pattertwig's Pal says, I can't see Ramandu's Daughter as a star, especially if she is capable of being a loving wife to Caspian, a capable Queen and the mother of Rilian. And I find myself speculating that maybe Coriakin had been likewise been "up to something" with a human. :-o
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