Chapter 8 Flies and Spiders

[Pattertwigs Pal]

1. Thorin tells Bombur “Don’t start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you.” Do you think Bombur’s falling in the river was a punishment for his grumbling or was it just a coincidence? Do you think Thorin had something like falling in the river in mind or do you think he was referring to something he would do or have done to Bombur?

2. Why do you think Bombur dreamed about feasting elves? What does it mean that it comes true? Why does Bilbo have a similar dream later?

3. What do you think about how the Wood-elves treated Thorin? Does Tolkien’s explanation of their history justify their actions?

4. Do you think Thorin was wise to handle the situation with the Wood-elves the way he did or do you think there was something he should have done differently?

[GlimGlum]

1) I think it was a coincidence that Bombur fell into the water and that Thorin would have punished him on his own for any disobedience.

2) That is interesting; maybe because Bombur was always hungry he was "in tune" with those feasting elves. Or perhaps because he was in an enchanted sleep from the water, he was able to see things in his dreams that were real and taking place in the forest.

Bilbo's dream came after their first couple of encounters with the Wood-elves and Bombur's dream so I think his was just influenced by those events and by just being hungry.

4) Yes, I believe Thorin was wise in not mentioning the treasure to the elf-king since he knew the history of the dwarves and elves and could probably perceive that this present king liked having great treasures
around.

[Meltintalle]

1. I am inclined to say that it was a coincidence. Thorin is not known for his foresight, so I expect he was just talking about Bombur being deprived of his supper ration or something of that sort.

2. If the river were enchanted by the elves (which I assume it was) it would make sense for the dreamer to dream of the enchanter. Bilbo also came under an enchanted sleep when he disturbed the elves' feast.

3. No, I don't think it does. I am pretty sure Tolkien was referring back to the story of Thingol and the Silmaril, and I'm not sure how the Mirkwood elves fit into that family tree, but just because your cousin however many times removed made some foolish decisions many many many years ago... What I mean to say is: if neither party was affected by the point of contention, that's no excuse to not be civil to one another.

4. It's hard to say if Thorin had been a little more upfront about his plans if that would have been a good thing or a bad thing. Certainly, Thorin thought it a bad thing to have to share the treasure.

[ValiantArcher]

1) Well, there wasn't any direct connection for punishment, and I think Thorin was thinking of what he might have to do to Bombur (such as, as Mel mentioned, a loss of supper rations).

2) I think there was magic in the air. Also, though, your subconscious does tend to pick up on things while you're sleeping. Mel and Glimmie brought up good points on this as well.

3) They treated Thorin pretty well for a prisoner; they fed him and kept him in decent, if not particularly nice, lodging. They definitely treated him humanely if not hospitably, and Tolkien's comments at least explain their actions, if not completely justifies them.
Mel also brought up an interesting point about whether they even really had a quarrel with eachother; they didn't personally, but both races are stubborn and things in general were pretty bad between their peoples. And they continue to be for quite a while.

4) Considering the fact that Bilbo and the other Dwarves were still out there, Thorin probably should've been more open and given a better account. Earlier, Beorn was also an initially unwelcoming and intimidating host but, thanks to Gandalf's cleverness, the entire party found a welcome. Thorin probably should've learned a lesson from that instance.

[Movie Aristotle]

1. Coincidence. I'm pretty sure it was a coincidence. After all, his falling in the river was more bad luck for the other dwarves than for Bombur. He got to hibernate contentedly. It was the others who had to haul him around. The worst thing that Bombur suffered was short-to-mid-term memory loss, -which I suppose is pretty bad, when you think about it. Bombur completely forgot all of the events of the first movie!

2. I think it was part of the elve's magic that those under their enchanted sleep would dream of the happenings in other places of the wood. The dreams and the reality were a bit too similar to be coincidental.

3. I think I can understand the episode from the elve's point of view. After all, a troop of armed dwarves did, in fact, surprise their party in the woods. Thorin's hostility towards the elven king also helped to confirm their suspicions. Which leads me to

4. Although Thorin technically did nothing wrong in his dialogue with the king, he didn't do much right with his impolite and uninformative replies. With a little more courtesy, he might have gained the elve's aid in finding and feeding the rest of his friends. Besides, he need not have mentioned the reason for his journey, but rather insist that he was hoping to travel straight through the Elven King's land without incident, but that trouble had befallen them along the way and they would be grateful for the elve's help. I think Gandalf or Bilbo would have had enough sense and charm to gain the elve's favor, whereas Thorin evidently did not. Perhaps this sort of thing is what Gandalf had in mind when he told Bilbo to look after the dwarves.

[Pattertwigs Pal]

1. Thorin tells Bombur “Don’t start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you.” Do you think Bombur’s falling in the river was a punishment for his grumbling or was it just a coincidence? Do you think Thorin had something like falling in the river in mind or do you think he was referring to something he would do or have done to Bombur?
I definitely think Thorin's statement was foreshadowing; however, he probably didn't know that. I'm sure Thorin would have picked a different punishment for Bombur, since what happened punished the rest of the company more than Bombur.
2. Why do you think Bombur dreamed about feasting elves? What does it mean that it comes true? Why does Bilbo have a similar dream later?
While Bombur would very likely dream of food, I don't think that under normal circumstances he would dream about Elves. If Bilbo had fallen asleep naturally, I would say he was merely dreaming about it because Bombur had described it and seen the elves. However, it seems too coincidental that two people who have fallen asleep by enchantment have the same dream. I'm not sure how the enchantment works, if people thus enchanted always dream about feasting elves or if they dream about things that are or will be true. It would be very interesting to know what Thorin dreamed when he fell into enchanted sleep. Tolkien writes that the Elves took their spell off of Thorin so it is a logical conclusion that they also put a spell on Bilbo. Since Bilbo and Bombur had such similar dreams, the elves probably put a spell on the water (unless they use the water to put the spell on strangers they meet.) If the spell specifically causes people to dream of feasting elves, it seems like a strange choice to broadcast a feast that one doesn't want disturbed.
I think I just used a lot of words to say much the same thing as others.

3. What do you think about how the Wood-elves treated Thorin? Does Tolkien’s explanation of their history justify their actions?
They seemed to be a bit harsh. It is unfair of them to ask Thorin what the others were doing and where they were. I was going to say that they should not have accused Thorin of attacking them but then I read Movie Aristotle's answer and I can see how it might have looked like an attack. I do think the elves could have given them a chance to indicate their intentions. Tolkien's explanation makes their behavior understandable but I'm not sure it justifies it. I think they have the right to take Thoirn with them until they are able to ask him questions and determine if he is an enemy. He was trespassing on their land after all.

4. Do you think Thorin was wise to handle the situation with the Wood-elves the way he did or do you think there was something he should have done differently? Everything he said was true, especially if one thinks of the path as being separate from the forest. I know the path is technically in the forest but it seems different, sort of like a safe zone or a right of way through Mirkwood and the Elves' land. His answers obviously angered the Elven king. On the other hand the questions angered Thorin. I'm not sure if it would have helped any to tell the whole truth. The king might not have believed him. Thorin might have been able to ransom himself with treasure.

Although Thorin technically did nothing wrong in his dialogue with the king, he didn't do much right with his impolite and uninformative replies.

That is a good way of putting it.

[Ithilwen]

1. Thorin tells Bombur “Don’t start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you.” Do you think Bombur’s falling in the river was a punishment for his grumbling or was it just a coincidence? Do you think Thorin had something like falling in the river in mind or do you think he was referring to something he would do or have done to Bombur?

The Hobbit, unlike LOTR, is designed much more like a classic fairy tale. And in fairy tales, fate is often portrayed like Karma. The good people have good endings and the bad people have bad endings. So, since grumbling is considered a fault, Bombur would be endangering himself according to fairy tale rules.

2. Why do you think Bombur dreamed about feasting elves? What does it mean that it comes true? Why does Bilbo have a similar dream later?

He most likely dreamed about Elves because the enchantment of the elves rested over that part of the forest.

3. What do you think about how the Wood-elves treated Thorin? Does Tolkien’s explanation of their history justify their actions?

I think the history justifies suspicion. But a little forgiveness is in order, no matter the situation.

4. Do you think Thorin was wise to handle the situation with the Wood-elves the way he did or do you think there was something he should have done differently?

I think that, because he knew the Elves would be so suspicious of him, he should have gone to extra pains in his behavior to show he meant them no harm.


~Riella

[Varnafinde]

1. Thorin tells Bombur “Don’t start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you.” Do you think Bombur’s falling in the river was a punishment for his grumbling or was it just a coincidence? Do you think Thorin had something like falling in the river in mind or do you think he was referring to something he would do or have done to Bombur?

It sounds like a coincidence, but the thought about it being some kind of fairytale karma sounds like an interesting possibility as well.

I think that what Thorin was thinking of, was just some small punishment that he might devise for Bombur. At the time, he maight not even have planned anything in particular, just knew that he would come up with something if he decided to go through with it.