Letter 14

[Pattertwigs Pal]

1. How would you define humility? Has this letter challenged your definition?

2. Screwtape also talks about false modesty. How can we avoid that trap? Is there a way to tell if we are practicing false modesty or humility?

3. Screwtape mentions that one way to counter humility is to make the patient proud that he is humble. How can we counter this feeling of pride at being humble. Is it really as easy as laughing and going to bed?

[Meltintalle]

1. I have a basic notion that humility is not being proud of one's accomplishments; possibly/probably involving a blush and toe-scrapping, "Awww, shucks, it was nothing...." when complimented. That's rather like what Screwtape described as desirable from his point of view, actually, so...

2. I haven't the slightest idea, but I have a little story...

I was dreaming about visiting a little bookstore, looking at books released as tie-ins for The Hobbit and digging into my wallet because yes I needed those books... Somehow, I got to chatting with the proprietor and a few other customers about Silver Leaves and we were all talking about how much we enjoyed it and so on -- and I did not mention that, you know, oh by the way, I'm a contributor because...

I practice false modesty even in my dreams? It must be deeply ingrained because surely in a dream that's where you could expect adulation and you don't have to worry about people not liking your work.

3. If it is, then I think I get stuck at the part where I get confused after the realization...

[ValiantArcher]

1. Humility is the attitude of being humble. More seriously, though, I think it has to do with having an honest opinion of your lowness, not in a bad way, but simply because you know that there's Someone so much greater. Also, not necessarily having an elevated opinion of others, but generally holding them at least as valuable as you. Maybe?
I don't think this letter has necessarily challenged my definition, but it has made me think about it some more.

2. Em, perhaps by seeing if our attitude is nonsensical, we can avoid the trap of false modesty? I'm afraid I'm not really sure.
I'd guess that one way to tell whether we're practicing false modesty or humility is to check it against the Bible. If we're really being humble, our behavior should show us acting in a Christ-like way.

3. Sometimes, yes, I think it is. Other times, though, I think it requires more reflection, perhaps on Christ---it'd be a bit hard to feel proud at being humble when you're faced with perfect humility.

Huh, interesting point about your dream, Mel! It makes me want to think some more about my dreams, though I haven't really had any big accomplishments to dream about. So, do you think listening to someone praise you (even indirectly) without owning up to it is practicing false modesty?

[Pattertwigs Pal]

1. How would you define humility? Has this letter challenged your definition?

I think I would have defined humility as not bragging and not admitting when you had done something well. This letter has definitely made me think about humility more. I think maybe we as humans are missing part of the point of humility. I don't think humility is necessarily as much of a feeling / emotional / verbal trait as humans tend to make it. This parable about people choosing the best seats at the feast comes to mind. The people are advise to sit in a lower place whether they think they are worthy or a higher spot or not. It seems like there isn't any probably of accepting the honor. Also, Jesus is considered humble. What did he do to show he was humble? 1. He became human. 2. He washed his disciples feet. 3. He ate with tax collectors etc. However, that didn't stop him from allowing the people to honor him (the entry into Jerusalem and allowing perfume to be poured on him, etc.) or from admitting that he was the Son of God. If we try to make humility into a feeling or an emotional state we run the risk of a. practicing false modesty or b. feeling pride about being humble. Of course, there is an mental aspect to it, but I don't think that should be the focus. We need to remember that "Everything except God has some natural superior;" (yes, a C.S. Lewis quote ). Remembering that quote, will help ward off pride. Focusing on our actions (ex. doing tasks that might be considered "below" us and not actively seeking honors), will help us not practice false modesty. I don't think there is any harm in allowing ourselves to be praised - we just shouldn't actively seek it or let it go to our heads. I think I covered all three questions in that answer. I hope it makes sense. Humility is a hard thing to pin down. Pride is much easier to define.

I think your definition makes a lot of sense too, Valia.

[stargazer]

1 and 2. I recall a message once in which the pastor commented that humility is thinking of ourselves properly - not only avoiding thinking of ourselves too highly but also too lowly ("I'm a worm," etc) - either of those would be false modesty/humility. (Though it is certainly true that encountering God may prompt a realization in us of our own unworthiness, it's how we react to that, or display it to others, that may mark true or false humility).

One of his texts was Romans 12:3:

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

[Eustace]

1. How would you define humility? Has this letter challenged your definition?
Realizing yourself as God sees you and although you are small, God is going to use you to help others in someway. No, not really.

2. Screwtape also talks about false modesty. How can we avoid that trap? Is there a way to tell if we are practicing false modesty or humility?
We can thank God instead for all the talents he gave us. Do not link of ourselves as less than God sees us.


3. Screwtape mentions that one way to counter humility is to make the patient proud that he is humble. How can we counter this feeling of pride at being humble. Is it really as easy as laughing and going to bed?

This is not really easy at all but we can ask God for a lot of help on this one, and think about others.

[7chronicles]

1. How would you define humility? Has this letter challenged your definition?

I think Lewis describes it well in this letter. No, but it served as a good reminder of how valuable humility is.

2. Screwtape also talks about false modesty. How can we avoid that trap? Is there a way to tell if we are practicing false modesty or humility?

I love to draw, in the past I would give drawings as gifts to people.
They would always tell me how great my drawings were, and such.
And I used to sometimes just say, well I messed up on such and such, or its ok.
One of the reasons I found myself doing this was because I didn't want to come across arrogant. I have learned over time just to say a vey sincere thank you.
I realize that God has blessed me with something I can do, to give him glory.
To diminish that, I think is to diminish what God intended to use to glorify him.
I think it is sometimes evident to yourself that you are being false with your modesty. Other times I think you don't even realize it.
I think asking God to help you and to always think before you say can help you stay out of the trap.

3. Screwtape mentions that one way to counter humility is to make the patient proud that he is humble. How can we counter this feeling of pride at being humble. Is it really as easy as laughing and going to bed?

I don't know if it's always as easy as laughing and going to bed, but I think the more aware we are of our hearts and remember how great God is, we can give him the glory, and praise him for humbling our hearts.

[Ithilwen]

1. How would you define humility? Has this letter challenged your definition?

I wouldn't say it's changed my definition. I think humility is a bit tricky to define. A lot of people think it's running yourself down (usually using the false modesty methods mentioned in the letter) or self-loathing. I disagree with those definitions. I think it's seeing yourself, to the best of your ability, the way God sees you - as someone loved by God and made in His image, but not someone the universe revolves around.

2. Screwtape also talks about false modesty. How can we avoid that trap? Is there a way to tell if we are practicing false modesty or humility?

I think prayer, self-examination, and a better understanding of what humility really means is the best way to go in such cases.

3. Screwtape mentions that one way to counter humility is to make the patient proud that he is humble. How can we counter this feeling of pride at being humble. Is it really as easy as laughing and going to bed?

I think when the letter mentions laughing and going to bed, it's not those particular things that chased the pride away, but rather the reason behind it. The reason why the patient would laugh and go to bed is because they realized what the demon was doing and decided not to go there. Although, I don't think that alone would solve the problem. In fact, I don't think we really even need a demon tempting us in order for us to be prideful. We do a good job of that all by ourselves. The only real way of defeating pride in the long run is through Christ's help.

Other Comments:

One of my favorite points Lewis makes is in this letter, when he says that humility, once instilled in its correct form, will not make the person look down on their own talents but rather enjoy them. And what's more, they will be able to enjoy the talents of others to the same extent. I find this to be so true. There's such a communal feeling when humble and talented people get together. Whereas, with people who hold onto their pride, there is often contention, competition, and envy.


~Riella

[Movie Aristotle]

1. How would you define humility? Has this letter challenged your definition?

Not thinking of yourself more highly than you ought. I think the problem with thinking of yourself more lowly than you ought is that you might take pride in your thinking of yourself more lowly and defeat the entire purpose.

2. Screwtape also talks about false modesty. How can we avoid that trap? Is there a way to tell if we are practicing false modesty or humility?

...They would always tell me how great my drawings were, and such.
And I used to sometimes just say, well I messed up on such and such, or its ok.
One of the reasons I found myself doing this was because I didn't want to come across arrogant. I have learned over time just to say a very sincere thank you.

Wow. This is good to keep in mind. I recognize myself doing something very similar, perhaps out of false humility or just insecurity. Either way, I should just be saying "thank you" instead. Thanks for the tip.

3. Screwtape mentions that one way to counter humility is to make the patient proud that he is humble. How can we counter this feeling of pride at being humble. Is it really as easy as laughing and going to bed?

I think the point of countering pride is simply to get your mind off of yourself. So if you are busy thinking about yourself being humble or prideful, simply laughing it off and ignoring it would be a good strategy. Of course, self-reflection is a good thing, but I would assume that the purpose of reflection is to figure out what you are doing wrong and still need to work on, (and then make a plan on how to fix it, with God's generous help) not to meditate on praising yourself. In short, focusing on others, and most importantly on God, seems to be the best way to combat pride and to become truly humble.

[Varnafinde]

I think I would have defined humility as not bragging and not admitting when you had done something well. This letter has definitely made me think about humility more. I think maybe we as humans are missing part of the point of humility. I don't think humility is necessarily as much of a feeling / emotional / verbal trait as humans tend to make it. This parable about people choosing the best seats at the feast comes to mind. The people are advise to sit in a lower place whether they think they are worthy or a higher spot or not. It seems like there isn't any probably of accepting the honor. Also, Jesus is considered humble. What did he do to show he was humble? 1. He became human. 2. He washed his disciples feet. 3. He ate with tax collectors etc. However, that didn't stop him from allowing the people to honor him (the entry into Jerusalem and allowing perfume to be poured on him, etc.) or from admitting that he was the Son of God. If we try to make humility into a feeling or an emotional state we run the risk of a. practicing false modesty or b. feeling pride about being humble. Of course, there is an mental aspect to it, but I don't think that should be the focus.

Very good point.

We're back at what was mentioned in some earlier letters - the tempter's attempt to get the Patient to focus on the state of his mind rather than on the things he was doing. Feeling spiritual instead of giving people practical help. Feeling afraid instead of praying for courage.

How did Jesus show his humility? As you say, by doing things, things that were helpful for others.
Not by pretending he wasn't worthy of honor - he accepted that he was.

And thus by showing that he was willing to humble himself by doing the jobs of the least honored people in his society. He didn't put himself too high to be willing to do those jobs.

[Meltintalle]

So, do you think listening to someone praise you (even indirectly) without owning up to it is practicing false modesty?

Er... yes? Because you could certainly speak up and say, "On behalf of the people you've complimented, thank you! I will pass that on to them, they'll be so pleased."