What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Ryadian » Jan 30, 2018 1:10 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:
Skilletdude wrote:And I'm more curious to see how far Johnston's statement goes that he wants to do his own thing for this film. Does that mean not bothering with the name Liliandil? I kind of hope so.


I hope so, too; I never really liked the name much, and I like the fact that she is simply the Queen in SC. Her lack of a name adds to the mythic, "fable"-like quality that David Magee mentioned in his interview on the Talking Beasts podcast.


I wouldn't be surprised if there would be a rights issue with trying to use Liliandil, since it was created by the VDT staff, not Lewis. Which... admittedly, I'd also be happy if they left the name out. I was always on the fence about giving her a name at all (let alone that one, which never felt all that Narnian to me), and I'd rather they just went back to not giving her a name at all than trying to shoe-horn in that one.

While I have to agree with some of the other posts here that the Queen's nature as a Star's Daughter was never explicitly relevant to the plot... I really, really want them to keep it in the movie, and preferably not in some kind of "blink and you'll miss it" way. The idea of living stars is the most intriguing aspect of Narnia to me, and like gP said earlier, the previous movies have already been too quick to throw out things that aren't "necessary" but that rob the movies of their Narnian qualities. Plus, I do kind of like the mystery of whether or not the Queen was murdered because the LotGK feared her heritage for some reason, or if it was for some other reason.

On the flip side, I don't need them exaggerating her nature, either. I didn't care for VDT's assumption (or condensing, whichever it was) that she was a star herself - the books never say that one way or the other, and again, I liked the mystery of not knowing for sure. I don't want the movie makers to give her powers or anything like that.

The glow that was suggested would work for me, though with the same subtlety as the elves from LOTR, and not like Liliandil had in VDT. Anything beyond that, I guess that depends in large part how they're going to establish the backstory - are they going to have a flashback to that scene, or have it told as a story later, or...? Perhaps I'm influenced by the BBC and FotF adaptations, but I feel like it's easier to include reference to her being a Star's Daughter if the story is told rather than having it shown as a flashback, though of course that'll be less interesting visually. But it's hard to speculate on how they're going to do it without any idea of how they're going to frame that.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Jan 31, 2018 3:17 pm

As you are saying, Ryadian, the BBC and Fotf productions do go for some sort of flashback. This is part of the book text as well, but much of what is told to Eustace and Jill relies on the testimony of Drinian, who has died, himself. We don't need to see what actually happened after the court left the clearing, because the Owls obviously heard from Drinian, himself, someone near to him, or even from other eyewitnesses, after his confrontation with King Caspian. Paintings, tapestries (even - think of the Bayeux tapestry), maps, letters, proclamations, diaries, annals, history books etc can also be trotted out, when relevant, as supporting evidence when required in the context of a proper parliamentary discussion. After all, even the mighty USA Congress has a library, complete with its own way of classifying library materials it has been my sometimes painful duty to be acquainted with. Rock paintings such as those referred to in Aslan's How, in Prince Caspian, are also an idea, if they are at hand at the site of where the Owls congregate. So there is no need to depict Rilian at all before they actually find him.

All that is needed is how the Queen, herself, came to die at a particular glade where she and her court were having a picnic, and which Drinian later identified as the same one where Rilian met LOTGK. It has been suggested in the Reading Group that LOTGK might have been in the picnic group and could have handed the Queen a goblet of drugged wine, before slipping off to murder her, which would be a really good idea so long as we don't actually see who it is that hands her the wine, only the Queen, herself, supported by the grassy bank, drinking from the goblet and getting sleepy.

I've thought maybe that the snake, worming its way underground, finds its way back to the pool but is blocked by the sleeping Queen. A groggy Queen, waking up finds herself confronted with an angry snake that attacks her. She screams, thus summoning everyone to her aid. But she can't make herself understood, there is nothing else that anyone can do for her, and after a while she dies, and the court has to take her lifeless body back to King Caspian to mourn her.

It is at that point it becomes tricky, and where Anhun's idea to show her lineage does come into play. As she dies, someone else's face mingles with the faces of those of her court trying to help the Queen. It is Ramandu, himself a star, coming to claim his beloved dying daughter, filling her vision as she finally expires. We didn't even get to see Ramandu in VDT the film, did we? So copyright won't be an issue.

But if my idea was adopted, rather than Anhun's, the court would not of necessity see anything to justify their belief that the blood of the stars flowed in the Queen's veins, if they don't see Ramandu. And still there remains the dead body to bury. Do we really need to see the funeral?
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Feb 01, 2018 3:04 pm

Ryadian wrote:While I have to agree with some of the other posts here that the Queen's nature as a Star's Daughter was never explicitly relevant to the plot... I really, really want them to keep it in the movie, and preferably not in some kind of "blink and you'll miss it" way. The idea of living stars is the most intriguing aspect of Narnia to me, and like gP said earlier, the previous movies have already been too quick to throw out things that aren't "necessary" but that rob the movies of their Narnian qualities.


Hear, hear!

One thing that might be a possibility is to include something subtle early in the film that leaves the audience wondering about her, and then later on during the quest, the Queen's heritage comes up in conversation. The questers could be looking at the stars when bivouacking, and Eustace could talk about how he met the late Queen on the voyage to the end of the world and that she was the daughter of a star. Jill could say "But aren't stars made from gases and things?" and they could sort of re-hash the conversation that Eustace had with Ramandu about the nature of stars in VDT.

That could be a good way to remind the audience that Narnia is different from our world and its rampant materialism... and who doesn't love conversations around a campfire?

waggawerewolf27 wrote:As she dies, someone else's face mingles with the faces of those of her court trying to help the Queen. It is Ramandu, himself a star, coming to claim his beloved dying daughter, filling her vision as she finally expires.


Interesting! It doesn't strike me that the stars in Narnia are able to leave their heavenly dance at will, though... all the ones we meet that are earthbound are there because of their great age or punishment. One does imagine that Ramandu would try to signify his mourning in some way, however... :-?
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby coracle » Feb 01, 2018 4:23 pm

I think it's important that anything that gets added in to this film will become 'set' in people's minds for another generation or longer, as it will be the standard version of SC, even to many who have read the book.

I'd be hesitant to add these interesting ideas, for that reason. Look at some of the others they added, which we now regret.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Feb 17, 2018 6:34 pm

coracle wrote:I think it's important that anything that gets added in to this film will become 'set' in people's minds for another generation or longer, as it will be the standard version of SC, even to many who have read the book.

I'd be hesitant to add these interesting ideas, for that reason. Look at some of the others they added, which we now regret.


Well, yes......But that again goes back to what Anhun said about Ramandu's daughter/Caspian's Queen turning into a star, herself. A strategically timed, slightly out of the ordinary, beam of starlight bathing the dying Queen might be a less complicated way of showing her lineage and illustrating family grief, especially if someone comments about it.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Mrs Smooshy » Mar 08, 2018 10:13 pm

When the movie is explaining about the Queen's death, whoever is narrating (assuming it's a flashback) can say "The Queen, Ramandu's daughter" or something like that. Throwing in a person's parentage seems to be common to medieval-style story-telling. I mean, the LOTR movies would say "Theoden son of Thingol" and they never got into what that meant exactly but it gave the world depth.

But they need to show what happened in the glade one way or another. It's the whole reason Rilian went missing. Unless they want to revise that completely.

That stars are alive in Narnia doesn't even come up all that much in the books because, as someone said earlier, they really can't come and go at will. I suppose someone could look up in the sky and say "the stars are mourning the loss of their daughter" or "one of their own". Obviously not exactly like that. I'm not a screenwriter for a reason. ;)
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Liberty Hoffman » Apr 13, 2018 3:50 pm

I find it annoying that Joe Johnson wants to rid SC of any attachments to the first 3 films. Given his comments, we probably won't get the name Lilliandil, which is sad because I love the name.
I honestly worry also that Johnson won't give enough backstory to any of this, thus making Lilliandil's death unemotional and pointless. He wants to start a whole new 'series' on a book that has attachments not only to the Narnia series as a whole, but to the previous movie. We have to care about who the old king is because it's Caspian and Eustace knew him and cares about him and if there's no emotional connection to that, then it'll fall flat.
I worry that the death of Lilliandil will mean nothing in the film because of Johnson's desperate need to distance himself from the other movies.
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Re: What to do about "Lilliandil" the Star's Daughter?

Postby Impending Doom » Apr 13, 2018 8:18 pm

Liberty Hoffman wrote:I find it annoying that Joe Johnson wants to rid SC of any attachments to the first 3 films. Given his comments, we probably won't get the name Lilliandil, which is sad because I love the name.
I honestly worry also that Johnson won't give enough backstory to any of this, thus making Lilliandil's death unemotional and pointless. He wants to start a whole new 'series' on a book that has attachments not only to the Narnia series as a whole, but to the previous movie. We have to care about who the old king is because it's Caspian and Eustace knew him and cares about him and if there's no emotional connection to that, then it'll fall flat.
I worry that the death of Lilliandil will mean nothing in the film because of Johnson's desperate need to distance himself from the other movies.


They're adapting The Silver Chair by C.S Lewis. Johnston distinctly said he's avoiding references to Walden's movies - but will still reference events in VDT, just as the book does. I liked the Lilliandil name as well. Sounded very Narnian to me.

Her backstory (in the book) never actually mentioned or alluded to anything from previous events. The death of our prince's mother doesn't need much backstory - just need to establish their relationship. Not sure why we'd need much more than that.
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