Battle?

Talk about any aspect of the films.

Moderator: daughter of the King

Re: Battle?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 21, 2016 1:12 pm

One thing I don't like about this thought, though, is that it would change the tone of the conversation. One of the things that I like about that part of "The Dark Castle" is that it's so creepy... we have three travelers lost in a hostile, utterly silent land, having supper in the gloomiest, quietest castle imaginable, and then there's this weird, something-not-quite-right-about-him Hamlet character talking cheerfully about his ageless bride-to-be and seizing kingdoms that never did him harm. It's wonderfully unnerving, and interspersing that conversation with brutal battle scenes would definitely change the tone.


Rose, how would it change the tone of an already creepy Hamlet type's explanation of what he and his lady friend intend to do to some unknown land, if it is shown graphically as well as verbally? It might change the rating of the film, though if the graphic content of such an explanation is too gory, though. And even if there is a skirmish after the death of LOTR.
User avatar
waggawerewolf27
NarniaWeb Zealot
 
Posts: 6680
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Location: Oz
Gender: Female

Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 21, 2016 3:04 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Rose, how would it change the tone of an already creepy Hamlet type's explanation of what he and his lady friend intend to do to some unknown land, if it is shown graphically as well as verbally?


Well, wouldn't you say that a scene where a would-be killer is talking about the things he will do has a very different atmosphere compared to a scene showing the killing? The former is creepy and disturbing and made all the more so because of the carefree way the conquest is spoken of, whereas the latter is going to get a much more adrenaline-pumping, fight-or-flight kind of response out of the audience.

In my opinion, "The Dark Castle" has an atmosphere that is not terribly unlike looking around a haunted house in the dead of the night and slowly stumbling across clues to a mystery that becomes more and more unnerving, whereas a battle scene is more akin to being attacked by a corporeal pack of monsters. Two very different types of scenes, although both are frightening. In the book, the tension slowly builds through Rilian's character... first the heartless mirth, then the pale dread, then the final insanity. Interspersing major battle scenes in between this would probably prevent that slow build-up of tension and eat away at the drama of the climactic moment when Rilian is bound to the chair. (I think you could potentially illustrate Rilian's words with brief, hazy snatches of battle scenes from Jill's imagination, though, and do it in such a way that might add to the slow increase in tension rather than distract from it.)

Does that make sense? :)
—The Rose-Tree Dryad, a.k.a. Rose @};-
Image
NW sister to Melian_Maia, lover of narnia, Elanor and juzuma loves lucy + NW twin to MissRosario
User avatar
The Rose-Tree Dryad
Moderator
 
Posts: 3742
Joined: Aug 21, 2010
Location: A secret garden
Gender: Female

Re: Battle?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 22, 2016 11:16 pm

Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:Well, wouldn't you say that a scene where a would-be killer is talking about the things he will do has a very different atmosphere compared to a scene showing the killing? The former is creepy and disturbing and made all the more so because of the carefree way the conquest is spoken of, whereas the latter is going to get a much more adrenaline-pumping, fight-or-flight kind of response out of the audience.


Well, maybe..... But actually when Rilian was outlining his creepy plans, it was after dinner, and it was coming up to his Silver Chair session. And yes, he did sound rather off when he met the three travellers. He starts by telling them about his afflictions then goes on to say: "The Queen knows by her art that I will be freed of this enchantment once she has made me king of a land in Overworld and set a crown on my head...." At this point I'd like to start seeing some visuals accompanying his creepy voice, even if they are just diagrams or vague images, if only to compensate for those in the audience who have difficulty hearing. All the moreso as a film is there to show what is happening, not just the actors having a conversation. And we need to have some inkling about what is horrifying Jill, Eustace and Puddleglum.

The prince goes on to tell them the place has already been chosen (though he doesn't know where it is, but perhaps, Puddleglum might recognise it?), and the very place where they will break out. (and here LOTGK assembling her Earthmen for the breakout would be useful). He says: "Her Earthmen have worked day and night digging a way beneath it, and have now gone so far and so high that they tunnel not a score of feet beneath the very grass".

And at this point, we, the audience, should be realising the dangerousness of this plan, as the prince goes on to say why LOTGK is not there and that he is expecting a message any minute. And it is at this point he tells the three travellers that he is to ride out with a thousand Earthmen at his back, to fall suddenly on enemies, slay their chief men etc. At this point I do see that keeping it vague visuals might be a good idea. But up to this point they could be clear enough, slowly fading, especially as the appalled Eustace and Jill start arguing with him. As the evening wears on any visuals should fade away as Rilian's voice changes, up to the time he is to be bound.

Would it be a good idea to portray the enchanted Prince being able to project his thoughts in some way? And how would it affect the tone of creepiness you talk about? With the prince's ability to do so, fading away the nearer he gets to his "hour"? If there is one weakness in the BBC version is that there is very little difference between the Prince's voice and appearance at dinner and what he is when bound, apart from what looks like an aluminium or silver foil mask of some sort, which he wears at all times. Yes, he sounds horrible at first, starts fighting the three children, even pinions Puddleglum to a wall. But there is no gradual change for us to notice. I'd expect there to be a gradual change that we could see in some way. Rather than seeing Puddleglum pinned to the wall, I'd rather see the Prince's thoughts leaking out and being projected to the wall, even if at first these sorts of thoughts might include battles, killing etc.
User avatar
waggawerewolf27
NarniaWeb Zealot
 
Posts: 6680
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Location: Oz
Gender: Female

Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 23, 2016 10:02 am

waggawerewolf27 wrote:Well, maybe..... But actually when Rilian was outlining his creepy plans, it was after dinner, and it was coming up to his Silver Chair session. And yes, he did sound rather off when he met the three travellers. He starts by telling them about his afflictions then goes on to say: "The Queen knows by her art that I will be freed of this enchantment once she has made me king of a land in Overworld and set a crown on my head...." At this point I'd like to start seeing some visuals accompanying his creepy voice, even if they are just diagrams or vague images, if only to compensate for those in the audience who have difficulty hearing. All the moreso as a film is there to show what is happening, not just the actors having a conversation. And we need to have some inkling about what is horrifying Jill, Eustace and Puddleglum.


I wouldn't be surprised if the filmmakers added more visual interest to the scene, especially since it's a family film and younger kids may squirm during long "talking" scenes. (I'm reminded of the effect they did with Coriakin's map in VDT, which I did like, even though I thought the scene itself was rubbish.)

They could potentially do a throwback to the LWW film and have the images of the LotGK's plot appear in the fire that is later used to enchant Rilian and his rescuers. (Tumnus's dancing fire was used in part to enchant Lucy, so perhaps the fire could be connected to Rilian's own enchantment as well, especially since it was one of the tools that the LotGK used to bewitch the four later on.) I like the idea of Rilian being utterly oblivious to whatever pictures appear, though, as though he is blind from his enchantment, while the others become increasingly alarmed as the images become more freakish and fearsome. That would be quite different from cutting to real, full-fledged battle scenes and I think it could actually enhance the effect of the scene, as long as it isn't overdone and the pretty CG flames become the focus.

Still, I don't know if a few visual effects would satisfy Hollywood's need for a battle scene. I rather suspect it wouldn't. But perhaps this paired with a slightly longer fight with the serpent and a more intense initial confrontation with the disenchanted gnomes would do the cumulative trick. *crosses fingers*
—The Rose-Tree Dryad, a.k.a. Rose @};-
Image
NW sister to Melian_Maia, lover of narnia, Elanor and juzuma loves lucy + NW twin to MissRosario
User avatar
The Rose-Tree Dryad
Moderator
 
Posts: 3742
Joined: Aug 21, 2010
Location: A secret garden
Gender: Female

Re: Battle?

Postby aileth » Sep 23, 2016 10:49 am

King_Erlian wrote:Rather than a battle, how about Rilian, Puddleglum, Jill and Eustace actually going into Bism? That could be very colourful and exciting. And maybe it could turn out that, just as when people from our world go into Narnia and find that no time has passed in our world while they've been away, no time passes in Narnia while they're in Bism.

Or twenty years could pass in Narnia, thus adequately explaining Caspian's extreme decrepitude and immediate decease :)

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:I'd say something about gravitational time dilation, except a) Narnia is a flat world

But is it?

If the filmmakers wanted to add interest to that part of the story, though, I would vastly prefer that the four take a shortcut through the upper regions of Bism on their way out of Underland as opposed to shoehorning in a battle scene.

That would be neat, for them to tour the edge it, rather than just have Golg describe it. Maybe with Jill saying, "Uh, guys, we really need to get going here."
Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away ... my days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle
User avatar
aileth
NarniaWeb Junkie
Peripatetic powder-room sub
 
Posts: 539
Joined: Jan 02, 2014
Location: Western Canada
Gender: Female

Re: Battle?

Postby Narnian88 » Sep 24, 2016 8:39 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:
King_Erlian wrote:Rather than a battle, how about Rilian, Puddleglum, Jill and Eustace actually going into Bism? That could be very colourful and exciting. And maybe it could turn out that, just as when people from our world go into Narnia and find that no time has passed in our world while they've been away, no time passes in Narnia while they're in Bism.


I'd say something about gravitational time dilation, except a) Narnia is a flat world, and b) I have no idea what I'm talking about. :P If the filmmakers wanted to add interest to that part of the story, though, I would vastly prefer that the four take a shortcut through the upper regions of Bism on their way out of Underland as opposed to shoehorning in a battle scene.

Narnian88 wrote:What if this were in the movie as an imagined sequence? As the enchanted Prince Rilian tells the three travelers of the LotGK's plans, we actually see it, maybe all the way (or just short) to the capturing of Cair Paravel. Sure it might be a little shorter than an actual epic battle in the film, but IMHO it wouldn't hurt the trios feelings of helplessness. And it could even include the giants.


Hmm, that's a very interesting idea. It could be a workable compromise, especially if it's just flashes of what might happen, and it could add some disturbing contrast to Rilian's flippant talk about the invasion. (Also, if we also see flashes of what's going on in Jill's "mind's eye" in the subsequent enchantment scene, her imagining the outcome of Rilian's talk in the previous scene could help lead into that and keep the changes in perspective from being quite as jarring.)

One thing I don't like about this thought, though, is that it would change the tone of the conversation. One of the things that I like about that part of "The Dark Castle" is that it's so creepy... we have three travelers lost in a hostile, utterly silent land, having supper in the gloomiest, quietest castle imaginable, and then there's this weird, something-not-quite-right-about-him Hamlet character talking cheerfully about his ageless bride-to-be and seizing kingdoms that never did him harm. It's wonderfully unnerving, and interspersing that conversation with brutal battle scenes would definitely change the tone.

If they were just eerie, hazy, brief images appearing in Jill's mind, that might work the best without changing too much of the "feel" of the scene. Still, I highly doubt that's what the filmmakers have in mind when they're thinking about adding battle scenes, but if they just want a snippet to stick into a misleading trailer, that might do the trick. /:)

(Oh, and welcome to NarniaWeb, Narnian88! :D)
Thank you, Rose. So happy to be here. B-)

I'm not saying I want to see this scene in the movie (not against it, either), but if the studios feel they must add a battle, this would be the time in the movie when I think it wouldn't affect the book accuracy much.
Sure, it could be quick or blurry or just an over head visual, but it's still the only spot when a battle is even described.

And I agree, the verbal combat between Rilian and the three Narnians was a high light of the book/BBC episode, without need of anything outside of that room. The imagination was set alight already! However, after much screen time in Underland, perhaps a few flashes of the sun and sky and green of Overworld will aide the contrast for some.
Besides, any travel in Bism was explained away by the urgency of escape, and (IIRC) mention of unbearable heat.

Like I said, I would VERY much prefer we see the film exactly as the book is written, un-edited, un-abridged, and un-assisted by someone who thinks they can do it better than the man behind the Lion. But if it's a deal breaker, let it be done in this manner.
"I am," said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there." - VDT
User avatar
Narnian88
NarniaWeb Regular
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Apr 17, 2016

Re: Battle?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 25, 2016 11:11 pm

Narnian88 wrote:What if this were in the movie as an imagined sequence? As the enchanted Prince Rilian tells the three travelers of the LotGK's plans, we actually see it, maybe all the way (or just short) to the capturing of Cair Paravel. Sure it might be a little shorter than an actual epic battle in the film, but IMHO it wouldn't hurt the trios feelings of helplessness. And it could even include the giants.


I'm all for battle scenes if they show the Earthmen mustering for battle, breaking through the soil to overwhelm the land they were to conquer, LOTGK at their head, and beside her the brainwashed Prince Rillian. Perhaps starting with his perception of how his enchantment works and how it is to be resolved. That is, if it is during that dinner whilst the Prince explains himself, and his part in the scheme of things, but not how he got there. Basically I want the plan to be shown clearly in all its monstrous intentions and goals, so that our trio have something to be aghast about. Betrayed to them by a Prince who has nothing else in his head but what LOTGK expects of him. It may make the trio feel helpless and aghast, but it will reinforce the sense of urgency.

Come to think about it, all those pictures spilling out from his mind could obscure and warp his face somewhat. And as they faded away from view, so might the Prince's speech become more normal in some way.

Narnian88 wrote:... but if the studios feel they must add a battle, this would be the time in the movie when I think it wouldn't affect the book accuracy much.
Sure, it could be quick or blurry or just an over head visual, but it's still the only spot when a battle is even described.

However, after much screen time in Underland, perhaps a few flashes of the sun and sky and green of Overworld will aide the contrast for some.


I like the idea of including in these thought leaks some flashes of the sun and sky, etc. Not only does it reinforce the danger of the plan, it will show the truth to the travellers, that it really was Prince Rilian they met on the road. Puddleglum might even be able to put names to places, to give them all something more to worry about. Even if neither Eustace nor Jill make the connection that it is Narnia which is targeted, not being really familiar with the place. In fact, why not have a battle of ideas? Battle plans etc, slowly being replaced by visions of Overworld, before fading out? In a darkened room, surely such an idea would be workable?

This particular episode of Silver Chair is its crisis and the most important bit of the story. Our trio have come a long way from when they landed in Narnia, or even since they met Prince Rilian and LOTGK on the giant road to the Giant City. It is absolutely important to get it right. And it is really important to show how different Prince Rilian looks when he is tied into the chair and subsequently, when the brainwashing effect has totally dissipated.
User avatar
waggawerewolf27
NarniaWeb Zealot
 
Posts: 6680
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Location: Oz
Gender: Female

Re: Battle?

Postby ValiantArcher » Sep 26, 2016 7:36 pm

Like many of you, I'm against them adding a big battle sequence at Cair Paravel (for one thing, then, the joy of coming up in a snowball fight is completely wiped away). ;)) I also think that escaping from a collapsing underground structure is tense and dramatic enough as it is. But if they have to add something, how about them expanding that bit, possibly adding in a bit of a battle there then? If the ante must be upped, struggling not only to escape into the light but also fighting a (small) group of enemy soldiers trying to avenge the LotGK's death seems pretty eventful to me.

That all said, I think SC is hard to fit into a "big climactic battle, then a happy scene or two and credits" mold due also to Caspian dying, and THEN the thorn and resurrection scene, which really is its own climax. Then, of course, you have the return and the punishment of the bullies.
User avatar
ValiantArcher
Moderator
BC Head and G&B Mod
 
Posts: 11332
Joined: May 16, 2007
Location: The Front Line

Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » May 30, 2017 12:18 pm

There will be a battle at [the end of this movie], but not quite the battle you think it’s going to be.


In the latest podcast, NarniaWebbers discussed what Joe Johnston meant by this comment, and one of them—I believe it was Twig's?—suggested that maybe Johnston meant a psychological or philosophical battle.

Obviously there is a battle minds and wills in the book when the LotGK attempts to enchant Rilian and the questers, but I'm now wondering if Johnston is hoping to take a more visual approach to this conflict. What if the sweet-smelling smoke from the fire takes on the form of assailing shapes and figures, attacking the Green Witch's victims? Perhaps the audience is able to "see" their internal wills rise up and try and fail to fight the magic? Or what if the debate plays out as a battle in their minds?

I have no idea what that would look like and don't know if it could work at all or not, but knowing that Johnston's strength and background lies in visual effects, it wouldn't surprise me if he approached this scene from this angle. And then there's his history with Star Wars: the climax of Return of the Jedi is very much one of psychological and physical combat, and I'm wondering if he wouldn't be tempted to draw inspiration from that on some level and try to blend the psychological battle with a physical one.

Still, I was very much hoping that the LotGK's attempted enchantment of the four characters would be mostly a dialogue scene, as it is in the book... and yet I am also sympathetic to the difficulty of illustrating what is going on in their heads and the effect that the sweet-smelling fire is having on them. So I'll reserve judgment on this. (It's definitely better than having the Harfang giants attack Cair Paravel! /:))
—The Rose-Tree Dryad, a.k.a. Rose @};-
Image
NW sister to Melian_Maia, lover of narnia, Elanor and juzuma loves lucy + NW twin to MissRosario
User avatar
The Rose-Tree Dryad
Moderator
 
Posts: 3742
Joined: Aug 21, 2010
Location: A secret garden
Gender: Female

Re: Battle?

Postby CorazonBandido55 » May 31, 2017 5:32 pm

I'm not a total book purist, so I'm very open to changes that keep within the spirit of the book. The previous scenario with the gnome army getting ready to attack Cair Paravel sounds pretty intriguing actually. I'm also ok with them leaving some minor aspects of the book out of the film. I wouldn't be surprised if Bism was left out the film, or if it was mentioned only as a passing reference. Seems like a lot of plots to try to fit in a film, and I'd rather something be left out then to not be able to develop a plot point. There are minor parts that I would actually prefer be left off of film. The snow dance is one that stands out to me; I hate to say it but I can't see the filmmakers being able to add this without coming off as "hokey". I felt the same way about the romp being left off Prince Caspian, and was relieved when it didn't make the film.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't mind if a battle is at the end of the film. In fact, I think I would find that appealing. There, I said it. :-o
your fellow Telmarine
User avatar
CorazonBandido55
NarniaWeb Nut
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Location: New Braunfels, TX, USA
Gender: Male

Re: Battle?

Postby Hwinning » Jun 02, 2017 7:01 am

Hi all. I originally posted this comment under the latest podcast before I joined Narnia web. Then I found this thread and knew it belonged here!

Lady of the Green Kirtle’s green fire influences Jill and Eustace to fight each other in hopes of being her left hand man instead of making them sleepy! It will be an internal battle within the minds of the main characters AND an actual fight as they try to kill each other and Puddleglum tries to tear them apart. This can also be where Puddleglum makes his speech. And let’s make the green mist float around them because why not. (No don’t, I was just kidding about that last bit).

I have to disagree with CorazonBandido55 about the snow dance. I believe they have to include that scene to re-establish the sense of wonder and light and to repair Jill's impression of Narnia. (Her experience in Narnia hasn't exactly been positive and she kind of needs to love it enough to go back in LB)
User avatar
Hwinning
NarniaWeb Regular
 
Posts: 18
Joined: May 30, 2017

Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Jun 02, 2017 2:35 pm

CorazonBandido55 wrote:There are minor parts that I would actually prefer be left off of film. The snow dance is one that stands out to me; I hate to say it but I can't see the filmmakers being able to add this without coming off as "hokey". I felt the same way about the romp being left off Prince Caspian, and was relieved when it didn't make the film.


As a dryad, a species that was present in both of those scenes, I am totally taking this personally. :P ;))

A little girl wandering through a wardrobe, stumbling into a winter wonderland, meeting a faun carrying an umbrella and having tea with him could potentially come across as a little "hokey"... but most people agree that Lucy's entrance to Narnia and her scenes with Tumnus are some of the best in LWW. If a director wasn't up for taking on that scene and bringing it to life with an earnest and whimsical touch, then I don't think they should be directing LWW. I think the same goes for other whimsical and quintessentially Narnian scenes in the rest of the stories. If a director doesn't like the things that make Narnia unique, or doesn't have the skill to adapt them to film without making it cheesy, then I don't think they should be making a Narnia film. There are other fantasy stories that could be adapted.

I'm not only coming from a faithfulness perspective on this, but also from a commercial perspective... there is a reason why the filmmakers tried to "bring back the magic" in VDT, the quality of the end product aside. Battle scenes are a dime a dozen in film, but how often do you see a scene anything like the Great Snow Dance, where fauns and dryads are dancing until dawn under the starlight in a winter wood to the tune of "wild music, intensely sweet and yet just the least bit eerie too, and full of good magic"? I get goosebumps thinking about it. It is one of the only scenes in the book set in Narnia itself and representing Narnian culture. It offers sharp and sudden relief from the despair and joylessness of Underland. I don't think they should even consider cutting it... and certainly not so that they can add in a new battle scene.

So you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I very much disagree. ;)

Hwinning wrote:Lady of the Green Kirtle’s green fire influences Jill and Eustace to fight each other in hopes of being her left hand man instead of making them sleepy! It will be an internal battle within the minds of the main characters AND an actual fight as they try to kill each other and Puddleglum tries to tear them apart. This can also be where Puddleglum makes his speech. And let’s make the green mist float around them because why not. (No don’t, I was just kidding about that last bit).


Shhh, don't even speak of it! ;)) That's actually one thing that really frustrates me about the Green Mist... I always imagined the room filling with hazy green smoke thanks to Pauline Baynes' illustrations, but any attempt to do that in the film will probably call to mind VDT's "villain". :ymsigh:

That's an interesting idea about the LotGK's enchantment inspiring physical battles, though. I have a hard time imagining them getting so far along in the enchantment that they start fighting over who will be the head henchman, but I can definitely imagine them rising up and trying to physically put a stop to the LotGK's enchantment in some way... perhaps one person tries to pull the instrument out of her hands, or another tries to move towards her, raising a sword before it slips from their hands as their strength and will is lost. And then Puddleglum is the only one with any sense by directly attacking the fire—similar to Edmund's cunning in going after the White Witch's wand in the battle scene in LWW.
—The Rose-Tree Dryad, a.k.a. Rose @};-
Image
NW sister to Melian_Maia, lover of narnia, Elanor and juzuma loves lucy + NW twin to MissRosario
User avatar
The Rose-Tree Dryad
Moderator
 
Posts: 3742
Joined: Aug 21, 2010
Location: A secret garden
Gender: Female

Previous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron