Battle?

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Battle?

Postby Glumpuddle » Sep 09, 2016 5:47 pm

Well, here we are again, folks! Another Narnia film is on the way, which means it's about time we started talking about the possibility of adding action sequences.

And I think it's pretty clear where this is most likely to occur: Having the gnomes dig through a few more feet of earth and attack Cair Paravel.

I envision the movie cutting back and forth between the battle, and Jill-Scrubb-Puddleglum fighting the snake. They will kill it, and then all the gnomes will snap out of it and throw down their weapons.

I guess I'm not totally opposed to having the idea of the gnomes breaking out... but it would have to be handled to great care to not overwhelm the end of the film. The real climax should be freeing Prince Rilian and overcoming the LotGK's lie that Narnia is just a dream.
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Re: Battle?

Postby narnia fan 7 » Sep 09, 2016 6:28 pm

I think that's the potential change I'm most worried about. I don't see how a battle with the gnomes could be done without it taking the focus away from where it should be, the confrontation the lotgk and Jill Puddleglum and the rest over coming her enchanument is tense and griping enough I think, perhaps having a smaller budget would discourage them from doing so?

Weather they have a battle or not, one thing I can see them doing is adding a ticking-clock element in the confrontation with the lotgk, like having the gnomes getting closer and closer to breaking out from underland and the snake's death coming right before they completely breakout to the overworld. That would still be distracting, but far less so I think the a battle.
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Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 09, 2016 7:04 pm

The one thing that leaps to my mind whenever I think of this possibility is that the gnomes are enchanted and battles usually have casualties... realizing that you've been slaying poor, miserable, brainwashed souls is going to be a real mood-killer when the LotGK's spell is broken.

If they're really insistent on this, I would prefer they have the gnomes just come within a hair's reach of laying siege to Cair Paravel or possibly have them try to attack the questers as they battle with the serpent, either attempting to break down the door (I'm imagining a bunch of zombies muttering "few return to the sunlit lands..." and throwing themselves against it :P) or chasing the questers up onto the battlements of the castle. When the serpent is finally killed, the spell is broken and the effect on the gnomes is immediately visible.

I think I like the idea of them attempting to come to the LotGK's aid better than I do having them try to attack Cair Paravel, because it doesn't make much sense to me that they would do that in the absence of the LotGK and Rilian.
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Re: Battle?

Postby coracle » Sep 09, 2016 10:21 pm

I've seen someone suggest that there could be two groups serving the LOTGK - one more her real servants, and the others the poor fellows from the Deep Lands who are just bewitched - and after she is killed the latter rise up against the former, with Jill, Eustace, Puddleglum and Rilian in some way involved.
This is much better than breaking canon and having them attack Cair Paravel.
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Re: Battle?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 10, 2016 11:49 pm

No need for either scenario. What is the scenario when Jill, Eustace and Puddleglum reach the Queen's palace? Of grim-faced, silent gnomes scurrying around docks and through streets. Just as they still seem to be doing when Prince Rilian and friends kill LOTGK. This could very well be rearmament and battle preparation.

And there is some evidence for this. When our three travellers have dinner with the still enchanted Rilian, he explains about his enchantment, outlining her plan to burrow under a land and to break out, installing him as king and herself as his queen. Instead of merely dialogue, this could be done almost as a presentation, couldn't it? Pictures projected onto the wall somehow, of the planned battle and strategies? The three travellers' appalled faces at what they are realising is intended? A date set and a clock ticking inexorably to the following day?

The Queen is away on that occasion, very likely due to the battle preparations, and that the tunnel they burrowed up to Overland was nearing completion. Therefore the soldiers she had were mustering for battle already, and assembling, ready to break out. Time is of the essence, and this does create the background urgency whilst the Prince struggles with his confinement in the chair. Had the travellers not arrived in time and released him, the Queen's magic would have been completed the following day, giving her reason for extra rage. And yes, there had to be a very good reason why she was late back for his evening sessions.
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Re: Battle?

Postby Reepicheep775 » Sep 12, 2016 9:21 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:The one thing that leaps to my mind whenever I think of this possibility is that the gnomes are enchanted and battles usually have casualties... realizing that you've been slaying poor, miserable, brainwashed souls is going to be a real mood-killer when the LotGK's spell is broken.

This. I would actually be up in arms if there was a battle with gnomes dying. The book makes it very clear that the gnomes aren't the enemy and I quite like the gnomes, so I'd be horrified if the Narnians just started killing them.

coracle wrote:I've seen someone suggest that there could be two groups serving the LOTGK - one more her real servants, and the others the poor fellows from the Deep Lands who are just bewitched - and after she is killed the latter rise up against the former, with Jill, Eustace, Puddleglum and Rilian in some way involved.
This is much better than breaking canon and having them attack Cair Paravel.

Having a good gnomes vs. evil gnomes battle would be much better than a Narnians vs. gnomes battle. I still wouldn't like it because I think it is completely unnecessary and, like narnia fan 7 said, it will likely take away from the confrontation between the main characters and the LotGK (the verbal, not the physical confrontation) just like the battle in LWW took away from Aslan restoring the statues in the Witch's castle and the battle in PC took away, and basically replaced, the Romp. If I found out there was going to be an added battle at the end of SC, I would be very concerned about this adaptation.
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Re: Battle?

Postby coracle » Sep 12, 2016 11:00 pm

But the gnomes wouldn't want to go and fight, once they are free of the LOTGK. They will all be hurrying home down the chasm.
I can't see a battle there.
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Re: Battle?

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Sep 12, 2016 11:36 pm

But the gnomes were within a whisker of breaking through to Narnia when LOTGK was killed. When the travellers finally reached it, the hole just needed to be widened some more. Probably because the breakout was near, the Queen went back to her place to fetch the Prince. Wouldn't it have taken the travellers some time to shake off LOTR and kill her? It seems as they were leaving the palace the travellers actually ran into the returning gnomes, and neither side knew that they had been prisoners together. There might well have been a scuffle of some sort, until they all realised there had been a misunderstanding.
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Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 13, 2016 10:05 am

coracle wrote:I've seen someone suggest that there could be two groups serving the LOTGK - one more her real servants, and the others the poor fellows from the Deep Lands who are just bewitched - and after she is killed the latter rise up against the former, with Jill, Eustace, Puddleglum and Rilian in some way involved.


... Oh dear. This have given me a horrid thought. Logically, the gnomes can't carry on and lay siege to Narnia on account of being enchanted, but do you know who is willingly in league with the LotGK, according to book canon? The Harfang giants.

It could be that they are allied forces in the LotGK's attack (doubtless she promised them a steady supply of Narnian delicacies in exchange for their help), and when the LotGK dies and the tunnel to reach Narnia is almost complete, the Harfang giants decide to carry on with her plans without her and her miserable gnomes. (This would be quite similar to Sopespian continuing Miraz's war in Prince Caspian.)

I hesitate to even post this in case an executive should read this and think it's a bright idea.... please, filmmakers, don't do this. :-s I sincerely really hope that the limitations on the budget don't allow them to even consider it. [-(

Reepicheep775 wrote:Having a good gnomes vs. evil gnomes battle would be much better than a Narnians vs. gnomes battle. I still wouldn't like it because I think it is completely unnecessary and, like narnia fan 7 said, it will likely take away from the confrontation between the main characters and the LotGK (the verbal, not the physical confrontation) just like the battle in LWW took away from Aslan restoring the statues in the Witch's castle and the battle in PC took away, and basically replaced, the Romp. If I found out there was going to be an added battle at the end of SC, I would be very concerned about this adaptation.


Amen. If they end up shoving some huge battle sequence into the story and cut the Great Snow Dance or Caspian's resurrection, so help me I'll... ~x( :((

*deep breath* ;))

waggawerewolf27 wrote:It seems as they were leaving the palace the travellers actually ran into the returning gnomes, and neither side knew that they had been prisoners together. There might well have been a scuffle of some sort, until they all realised there had been a misunderstanding.


This is what I would much prefer. I wouldn't mind it if they played up the initial confrontation with the gnomes and the questers/Rilian, as long as nobody gets hurt and it ends in the joy of realizing that it's all a misunderstanding. That part of the book, with the fireworks and the glimpse of Bism, is really where the fun starts to begin after a long, arduous journey. I really don't want them to muddy the joy of the gnomes' liberation with casualties and needless fighting.
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Re: Battle?

Postby Reepicheep775 » Sep 13, 2016 11:08 am

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:... Oh dear. This have given me a horrid thought. Logically, the gnomes can't carry on and lay siege to Narnia on account of being enchanted, but do you know who is willingly in league with the LotGK, according to book canon? The Harfang giants.

It could be that they are allied forces in the LotGK's attack (doubtless she promised them a steady supply of Narnian delicacies in exchange for their help), and when the LotGK dies and the tunnel to reach Narnia is almost complete, the Harfang giants decide to carry on with her plans without her and her miserable gnomes. (This would be quite similar to Sopespian continuing Miraz's war in Prince Caspian.)

I hesitate to even post this in case an executive should read this and think it's a bright idea.... please, filmmakers, don't do this. :-s I sincerely really hope that the limitations on the budget don't allow them to even consider it. [-(

If Walden was making this movie, I think this would be a strong possibility. Having a group of giants attack Cair Paravel would look admittedly cool, even if it would make me, as a book fan, tear my hair out.

However because the C. S. Lewis Estate revoked Walden's rights to the series after the disaster that was VDT, I would like to think that the Mark Gordon Company, Sony etc. were given the rights on the condition that they wouldn't do stuff like this, but that may be too optimistic. After all, the Green Mist/Seven Swords plot in VDT had absolutely no basis in the book, but adding a battle to the end of SC actually does have a basis in the book. It's a much smaller step to simply allow the battle that was avoided in the book to actually happen than to completely fabricate a save-the-world plot.

Please, film-makers, if you are reading this, learn from the mistakes of the earlier films and make the focus of this story what it should be! C. S. Lewis created stories that have survived for over 60 years. That is very rare for children's literature. He knew what he was doing!
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Re: Battle?

Postby narnia fan 7 » Sep 13, 2016 2:18 pm

Reepicheep775 wrote:However because the C. S. Lewis Estate revoked Walden's rights to the series after the disaster that was VDT, I would like to think that the Mark Gordon Company, Sony etc. were given the rights on the condition that they wouldn't do stuff like this, but that may be too optimistic.

I don't know, they've saying that The Mark Gordon Co, and The C.S. Lewis Estate are "jointly developing and producing the film" that gives me the impression that Douglas Gresham and the C.S. Lewis Estate has much more creative control then they did on the first three films. And perhaps just as much say in the project as the others, and that their not just handing it off to Mark Gordon, and TriStar to do with as they please. Of course that could be (and probably is) me over-analyzing, but it gives me hope.

One thing I've been thinking about over he past couple days, and something I hope the filmmakers realize as well. Is that not having a battle with the gnomes or giants or whatever and keeping the climax of the story true to the book would actually be the best thing for the film. Now I don't think that's necessaraly me being bias as someone who loves the book. As far as fantasy film go having a big fate of the world battle at the end of the movies has become something of a cliche over the last 10 too 15 years imho. Of course not all movie that do have a battle at the end are bad, but I feel like it is sometimes used as crutch because the characters and the story in the film are lacking. And it's not like there isn't excitement in the books climax what with the fight with the serpent and underland being flooded and the threat of our heros getting lost in the tunnels.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if the filmmakers just focus on telling a character-driven story and getting the audience to like and be emotionally invested in Jill, Eustace, and Puddleglum, and their quest to find Rilian, then I think the ending as it is in the book would be just as exciting and gripping as any battle they could force in.
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Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 13, 2016 5:51 pm

Reepicheep775 wrote:If Walden was making this movie, I think this would be a strong possibility. Having a group of giants attack Cair Paravel would look admittedly cool, even if it would make me, as a book fan, tear my hair out.


That's one of the reasons why this alarms me so much... I mean, I can objectively see that having a band of giants break out from the bowels of the earth and lay siege to a nation whose inhabits they intend to eat is a singularly horrifying thought and would make an extremely exciting climax to a film. It's just that such a scene does not belong The Silver Chair. It would completely derail the story in so many ways and would be such a foolish change to make... but I worry that the filmmakers and investors won't be able to resist the temptation of trying to manhandle the story into fitting the mainstream Hollywood mold. And as you said, it's not nearly as big of a change as the changes they made to VDT.

Ugh. I'm going to lose sleep over this. :P

I do have tentative faith in the team we have working on SC because I think that Magee is a good scriptwriter and I feel like Gresham would have been much more careful with who he chose to work with and the terms of the contracts that the Lewis Estate signed, but it still worries me. I really hope that the filmmakers realize that (if you must emulate an existing brand or franchise) CoN has far more in common with Pixar than it does with save-the-world blockbusters... these are well-told, character-driven stories that seem simple at a glance but are actually layered masterpieces. People come to see them because they know it's going to be a good story, not because they want to be awed by some battle sequence that you could find in any old movie.

Sorry, bit of a tangent there.

narnia fan 7 wrote:I guess what I'm trying to say is, if the filmmakers just focus on telling a character-driven story and getting the audience to like and be emotionally invested in Jill, Eustace, and Puddleglum, and their quest to find Rilian, then I think the ending as it is in the book would be just as exciting and gripping as any battle they could force in.


Yes, yes. I hope the filmmakers have the courage to do something different and memorable, because that's exactly what the book is. If they try to turn it into your typical fantasy blockbuster, then I sincerely believe that the rebooted franchise will not have the legs to make three more profitable films in the near future. (See, investors? I'm not just thinking from the perspective of a Narnia fan, I'm also trying to watch out for your pocketbooks. ;) :P)
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Re: Battle?

Postby Reepi » Sep 13, 2016 9:19 pm

Oh, no. At this rate they'll also add some hallucinations about Jadis during the lady of the green kirtle scene :p
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Re: Battle?

Postby King_Erlian » Sep 14, 2016 3:08 am

Rather than a battle, how about Rilian, Puddleglum, Jill and Eustace actually going into Bism? That could be very colourful and exciting. And maybe it could turn out that, just as when people from our world go into Narnia and find that no time has passed in our world while they've been away, no time passes in Narnia while they're in Bism.
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Re: Battle?

Postby Narnian88 » Sep 20, 2016 4:56 pm

Glumpuddle wrote:.....And I think it's pretty clear where this is most likely to occur: Having the gnomes dig through a few more feet of earth and attack Cair Paravel.
I envision the movie cutting back and forth between the battle, and Jill-Scrubb-Puddleglum fighting the snake. They will kill it, and then all the gnomes will snap out of it and throw down their weapons.
What if this were in the movie as an imagined sequence? As the enchanted Prince Rilian tells the three travelers of the LotGK's plans, we actually see it, maybe all the way (or just short) to the capturing of Cair Paravel. Sure it might be a little shorter than an actual epic battle in the film, but IMHO it wouldn't hurt the trios feelings of helplessness. And it could even include the giants.

Reepicheep775 wrote:......Please, film-makers, if you are reading this, learn from the mistakes of the earlier films and make the focus of this story what it should be! C. S. Lewis created stories that have survived for over 60 years. That is very rare for children's literature. He knew what he was doing!
This is absolutely mandatory. Above all else, stay true to the books.
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Re: Battle?

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Sep 21, 2016 9:36 am

King_Erlian wrote:Rather than a battle, how about Rilian, Puddleglum, Jill and Eustace actually going into Bism? That could be very colourful and exciting. And maybe it could turn out that, just as when people from our world go into Narnia and find that no time has passed in our world while they've been away, no time passes in Narnia while they're in Bism.


I'd say something about gravitational time dilation, except a) Narnia is a flat world, and b) I have no idea what I'm talking about. :P If the filmmakers wanted to add interest to that part of the story, though, I would vastly prefer that the four take a shortcut through the upper regions of Bism on their way out of Underland as opposed to shoehorning in a battle scene.

Narnian88 wrote:What if this were in the movie as an imagined sequence? As the enchanted Prince Rilian tells the three travelers of the LotGK's plans, we actually see it, maybe all the way (or just short) to the capturing of Cair Paravel. Sure it might be a little shorter than an actual epic battle in the film, but IMHO it wouldn't hurt the trios feelings of helplessness. And it could even include the giants.


Hmm, that's a very interesting idea. It could be a workable compromise, especially if it's just flashes of what might happen, and it could add some disturbing contrast to Rilian's flippant talk about the invasion. (Also, if we also see flashes of what's going on in Jill's "mind's eye" in the subsequent enchantment scene, her imagining the outcome of Rilian's talk in the previous scene could help lead into that and keep the changes in perspective from being quite as jarring.)

One thing I don't like about this thought, though, is that it would change the tone of the conversation. One of the things that I like about that part of "The Dark Castle" is that it's so creepy... we have three travelers lost in a hostile, utterly silent land, having supper in the gloomiest, quietest castle imaginable, and then there's this weird, something-not-quite-right-about-him Hamlet character talking cheerfully about his ageless bride-to-be and seizing kingdoms that never did him harm. It's wonderfully unnerving, and interspersing that conversation with brutal battle scenes would definitely change the tone.

If they were just eerie, hazy, brief images appearing in Jill's mind, that might work the best without changing too much of the "feel" of the scene. Still, I highly doubt that's what the filmmakers have in mind when they're thinking about adding battle scenes, but if they just want a snippet to stick into a misleading trailer, that might do the trick. /:)

(Oh, and welcome to NarniaWeb, Narnian88! :D)
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