Changing & Rearranging SC

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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby coracle » Mar 02, 2016 11:38 am

It's important to see a bit of Jill before she goes to Narnia. One script I saw had her being bullied by being shut in a cupboard, bringing on claustrophobia. Are there aspects of her character that need improving by encounters with Aslan, and a task in Narnia?
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Mar 02, 2016 1:25 pm

@coracle, yes you are right. Being shut in a cupboard, which has been done for disciplinary purposes in the past, as well as maliciously, by bullies, would certainly bring on claustrophobia in children affected this way. But what about Eustace's alleged fear of heights? Was it really a phobia, like claustrophobia? As a dragon, ferrying around his bareback riders, he hadn't shown that sort of fear in VDT, and as a human, he might have a reasonable, and healthy fear of falling over a spectacularly high cliff. Or, like Jill, he had since been bullied at Experiment House, himself. Did Jill, need to learn that not all fear is a phobia? Surely some fear is a normal response to dangerous situations, which prompts people to behave sensibly?

Impending Doom wrote:
The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:...I wonder if they might not show a few scenes of Eustace in his bullying, "pre-Narnia" state at the beginning of the film to give the audience a better sense of the scope of his character.

However promising that may sound, it doesn't appear the filmmakers be going down that route. David Magee replied to a question a fan asked about flashbacks with
David Magee wrote:"We considered flashbacks to fill in Eustace's back story, but decided we didn't need them."


In the book, Eustace does tend to explain himself somewhat, right in the opening pages, but this bit can be caught up with later on, since it is mostly talking and part of the story, anyway. Jill's showing off at the cliff edge and attitude to Eustace's concern does show that in some ways she, too, needs to rethink how she relates to herself and other people, not only the bullies. If she remembers a pre-VDT Eustace, well enough to identify him with the bullies, rather than a potential friend, this might also complicate her willingness, even to talk to him, let alone cooperate with him.

But then she seems to have a problem remembering the signs as well as remembering much about Eustace as a person. When we meet her she seems in no sort of mind to even bother remembering anything about anyone. So I'd say if there are flashbacks at all it would be strictly relevant Narnian history as required in the tellling of the book. Jill is given 4 clues or signs and she is to remember those clues, but sometimes she doesn't until after the clues are staring her in the face, or after she is literally standing in them.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Aug 10, 2016 7:52 pm

coracle wrote:It's important to see a bit of Jill before she goes to Narnia. One script I saw had her being bullied by being shut in a cupboard, bringing on claustrophobia.


This is very belated, but I really like that idea! And as Wagga said, it would be interesting if the filmmakers take the time to illustrate Eustace's fear of heights at Experiment House as well, perhaps at the hands of the bullies. In the book, we learn about Eustace's acrophobia through the narration, but if the movie audience doesn't know about how much he fears heights, it might make his sacrifice for Jill seem less impressive than it really is. I'm not exactly sure how you could illustrate a fear of extreme heights at a school, though... perhaps the bullies might hide something of his at a high, difficult-to-reach place?
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby narnia fan 7 » Aug 11, 2016 11:32 am

The Rose Tree Dryad wrote:In the book, we learn about Eustace's acrophobia through the narration, but if the movie audience doesn't know about how much he fears heights, it might make his sacrifice for Jill seem less impressive than it really is.


I'm not sure setting up have a Eustace's fear heights before they get to Narnia would really be necessary not that I think it's a bad idea, but I think that his fear could easily be conveyed through the acting and direction without having too spell it out to the audience beforehand,
Also I've never really seen Eustace's behaviour on the cliff as him having agoraphobia I always saw it as just a natural response to standing on the edge of massive cliff and I didn't really think make him trying to put Jill back from the edge of the cliff any less brave.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Aug 12, 2016 11:17 am

narnia fan 7 wrote:Also I've never really seen Eustace's behaviour on the cliff as him having agoraphobia I always saw it as just a natural response to standing on the edge of massive cliff and I didn't really think make him trying to put Jill back from the edge of the cliff any less brave.


Ah, that's a good point! I went back and reread some relevant passages, and I don't think one can say if he actually had acrophobia. When Jill felt like she couldn't go any farther into the caverns, Eustace said "Think of how I felt on that cliff." So in light of Jill's apparent claustrophobia, I figured that Eustace's fear of heights must be similarly extreme. However, since Jill was equally petrified by the height of the cliff (albeit not immediately like Eustace), he may have just been having a normal reaction.

I think if the filmmakers did try to illustrate a fear of heights at Experiment House, it would be because they already wanted to show some various instances of bullying anyway. I doubt that it's something they would assign screen time to for its own sake, given there are so many scenes competing to be included in the film. Regardless, I do hope that they're able to convey Eustace's heroism; I've always been impressed by his bravery in that scene.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby fantasia_kitty » Aug 12, 2016 1:40 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:When Jill felt like she couldn't go any farther into the caverns, Eustace said "Think of how I felt on that cliff." So in light of Jill's apparent claustrophobia, I figured that Eustace's fear of heights must be similarly extreme. However, since Jill was equally petrified by the height of the cliff (albeit not immediately like Eustace), he may have just been having a normal reaction.


I know I personally interpreted that passage as Eustace having a more extreme fear of heights than Jill. That's why he was so brave when he went up there to try to pull her back.

Interesting that both Eustace and Jill are given a major fear to confront in the movie. I wonder if they'll give Puddleglum a fear as well? Or perhaps they won't bother as he's always mentioning all the horrible things that could go wrong.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Aug 12, 2016 5:44 pm

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:I think if the filmmakers did try to illustrate a fear of heights at Experiment House, it would be because they already wanted to show some various instances of bullying anyway.


One instance of school bullying would surely be taking someone like Eustace, who we already know from VDT is not at all fantastic at swimming in real life, up to the highest level of the very deep diving pool and pushing them off. Eustace might know that he isn't going to be killed by the experience, but it would surely be the sort of things school bullies would do, and it still is terrifying.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Aug 13, 2016 11:49 am

fantasia_kitty wrote:Interesting that both Eustace and Jill are given a major fear to confront in the movie. I wonder if they'll give Puddleglum a fear as well? Or perhaps they won't bother as he's always mentioning all the horrible things that could go wrong.


Honestly, the only thing I can remember him being really visibly shaken by was discovering that he was eating Talking Stag, but that's not something you can turn into "overcoming a fear". A general theme, though, in Silver Chair is to do what you know you must do whether you are scared or not, and that is demonstrated in Puddleglum's character time and time again: he's constantly aware of every way things could go wrong, but he stays faithful to the mission. So in that sense, they're all confronting their fears, but it's more generalized with Puddleglum.

waggawerewolf27 wrote:One instance of school bullying would surely be taking someone like Eustace, who we already know from VDT is not at all fantastic at swimming in real life, up to the highest level of the very deep diving pool and pushing them off. Eustace might know that he isn't going to be killed by the experience, but it would surely be the sort of things school bullies would do, and it still is terrifying.


Ooh, that's an interesting idea. If the filmmakers wanted to include a montage of bullying, I can definitely see them doing something like that. I suppose the bullies could hide his school books up on the diving board to lure him up. I can also imagine, later on at the cliff, Jill scornfully saying, "I suppose it's the diving board all over again, isn't it?" when Eustace turns white upon looking over.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby waggawerewolf27 » Aug 14, 2016 4:30 am

The Rose-Tree Dryad wrote:Ooh, that's an interesting idea. If the filmmakers wanted to include a montage of bullying, I can definitely see them doing something like that. I suppose the bullies could hide his school books up on the diving board to lure him up. I can also imagine, later on at the cliff, Jill scornfully saying, "I suppose it's the diving board all over again, isn't it?" when Eustace turns white upon looking over.


Just blame the Olympics. :ymsigh: Or even the Commonwealth Games. I deliberately don't contribute to the Olympic thread since my whole instinct is to cheer for Australia, no matter what, but congratulations to the rest of you, anyway. :ymblushing: :ymapplause: However, I can appreciate other countries' achievements, especially those of small countries that nobody hears of very much as world champions. It doesn't do for even big countries, able to be so splendidly represented by undoubted champions like Ian Thorpe or Michael Phelps, to take sporting success for granted for ever after.

Besides, especially in swimming events, our news coverage is very partisan, and it spills over into everyday life as well. There was a time when the Council swimming pools we had access to were all set up to nurture our future Olympians, including the high divers. And most local schools would have at least access to the Council baths even if such schools weren't wealthy enough to have their own swimming pools. London staged the Olympics in 1948, not for the first time, Helsinki came next, then Melbourne proudly staged them in 1956. So until 2000, when jealous Sydney finally got its chance, provision of suitable sporting facilities was a good vote-winner for those in government at whichever level. Olympic glory often appears more impressive than book learning, and school bullies often tend to capitalise on that sort of thing to intimidate people who seem physically weaker and slower than themselves.

The high-dive really is a bit scary and yes, I agree that taking books up there would be one idea to lure Eustace. Just goading or threatening him would be another. Our minders used to prohibit younger children from going up there, and I've known people to get stuck on the ladders, or on the platforms. It wouldn't take much for some "smart-aleck" of a schoolboy to push someone if they took too long to jump. I went up to the highest diving platform to give it a go, years ago, trying to overcome my own fear of heights. But I never saw myself as even a barely competent diver either then or afterwards.

Fear of heights plays into other scary situations, including the over-the-top special effects in many adventure films. Those rickety suspension bridges, without even a rope for a guard rail, let alone a solid walkway, and with wide gaps between the slats, which give viewers the creeps, are fine and good in films. But in real life, even a well-constructed suspension bridge, with a solidly enclosed walkway, and some form of netting at the side, will sway in a high wind, especially if there are naughty teenagers jumping around, specifically to make everyone else more nervous than need be of the chasm beneath that makes the bridge necessary.

No, I don't think Jill could say anything "scornfully", since even she realises that the height of the mountain is so "over the top" that Eustace already has ample and just reason for his fearful attitude. But if she, herself, had no fear of the high-dive I can well see her showing off to Eustace in such a situation, as in the book.

I don't see Puddleglum as being particularly fearful, in fact he is exceptionally brave to venture on that trip with them. Notice how the owls won't go with the children, themselves, and refer them onto Puddleglum, the one marshwiggle they think might be helpful. Remembering how he is portrayed in the book, I get the impression his fellow marshwiggles are rather timorous people, afraid of venturing out of their own everyday comfort zones to go off into an unknown where they could end up losing their lives.

Yes, Puddleglum is a perpetual pessimist, but in a way that is a good thing if it helps people face their fears head on to overcome them. Maybe this is something that needs to be brought out in the film.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Aug 15, 2016 6:05 pm

waggawerewolf27 wrote:No, I don't think Jill could say anything "scornfully", since even she realises that the height of the mountain is so "over the top" that Eustace already has ample and just reason for his fearful attitude. But if she, herself, had no fear of the high-dive I can well see her showing off to Eustace in such a situation, as in the book.


Ah, I actually meant before she looked over the cliff and saw how high it was. She was annoyed with Eustace when he jerked her back before she had a look over, and "when she saw how very white he had turned, she despised him." So I could imagine her saying something regrettable in that moment as she walks up to the edge of the cliff to show off.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby Anfinwen » Aug 16, 2016 7:06 am

I've been listening to the audio book, and here are a couple things I think they might remove/change.
Jill's dream at Harfang: It isn't all that necessary (from a movie-makers point of view). Jill sees the writing in the morning, knows she hasn't been repeating the signs, and they start planning on how to get back on the quest.
The main point of the dream is to show how Aslan is working on Jill to help her as a person. We know the main point of the children coming to Narnia is to help them develop character and a relationship with God (see VDT ending); however, the movie audience might not know this and might think it odd that Aslan sends them on a quest, only to intervene when they make a mistake. I also feel it could be a slightly weird scene visually, and the surprise of the lettering would be greater if she first saw it in the morning.
Eating talking stag: I watched the scene in the older version. First, what was a talking stag doing that far north? They traveled for days before reaching Harfang! Second, the old movie shows a giant sized haunch of venison; if it's a Narnian beast, it wouldn't be giant. If it wasn't giant sized, there wouldn't be enough for several Giants and the three to have some. If they really want to put that scene in, I guess one of the giants could offer a piece to them, but I think it's just one of the things that might not end up in the movie.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby narnia fan 7 » Aug 16, 2016 9:40 am

Anfinwen wrote:Jill's dream at Harfang: It isn't all that necessary (from a movie-makers point of view). Jill sees the writing in the morning, knows she hasn't been repeating the signs, and they start planning on how to get back on the quest.


Yes I agree unfortunately, I love that scene in the book, but that is something that I could easily see the filmmakers wanting to cut out, in general I think that dream sequences are vary hard to pull of in movies, a lot of times (to me at least) they come of as pointless and distracting from the story.

That seid if they were to keep the dream in the film I think it could potentially make it work, perhaps if some of the bizarreness where toned down and uesing it too reveal 'under me' too the characters, like maybe show Jill looking at the letter in her dream then cut straight to her Pudleglumm and Eustace looking at them in real life.

Anfinwen wrote:Eating talking stag: I watched the scene in the older version. First, what was a talking stag doing that far north? They traveled for days before reaching Harfang!


I've wondered about that myself, perhaps if was a situation smaller too what happened too Bree and Hwin in HHB, a younger creature foolishly wondering deep in to a foreign country.

Anfinwen wrote:If they really want to put that scene in, I guess one of the giants could offer a piece to them, but I think it's just one of the things that might not end up in the movie.


Agein I could definitely see the filmmakers cutting this scene but I would be a bit upset if they did, I like it because for me it highlights just how grave of a mistakes they make by going to Harfang, are heros half to live with the fact that they although unintentional did a horrifying thing,and further illustrates just how twisted the Harfang giants are and makes the threat of them eating our heros being eaten more real and terrifying.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby bardiafox7 » Aug 16, 2016 11:01 am

I actually hope they dont excise the dream sequence. Personally, it's one of my favorite parts of the book, it really gives more of the supernatural elements in Narnia(I also love it when it happens in The Last Battle). Also, it adds to the role of Aslan--that he has given this mission and is watching and holding them accountable. At the end, Jill mentions it to Aslan about forgetting; that dream sequence increases the depth of the dialogue and the forgiveness of Aslan. The lesson at the end of it all is that we need someone to kick us out of our selfishness, we need Aslan to remind us of our greater duty to others. Anyway, I hate how the movies just reduce Aslan to a mentor archetype. Aslan is not Zordon(a exposition mouthpiece) he's the highking above all highkings and the one in charge to whom we are answerable to.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Aug 16, 2016 8:27 pm

Interesting thoughts, Anfinwen! (I really need to reread SC again as soon as I have the time, in light of the recent news!)

Anfinwen wrote:The main point of the dream is to show how Aslan is working on Jill to help her as a person. We know the main point of the children coming to Narnia is to help them develop character and a relationship with God (see VDT ending); however, the movie audience might not know this and might think it odd that Aslan sends them on a quest, only to intervene when they make a mistake. I also feel it could be a slightly weird scene visually, and the surprise of the lettering would be greater if she first saw it in the morning.


I can see how they might consider cutting the dream sequence, but at the same time, I rather think that they'd be keen on including a dream sequence in a fantasy film. While having the giant rocking horse turn into a toy lion and then into a real lion might be a bit heavy on the CGI if lifted directly from the book, I'm sure they could get creative with the way it's done to save some money. (They could cut away when some of the morphing is happening, for instance, or obscure it in some way.) Still, any time you have Aslan on the screen, it's going to be costly.

And you're right about it showing how Aslan is working on Jill as a person; I think that's all the more reason to leave it in, given that she's the main character. I think that dream sequence really drives home her mistake. I hope it doesn't end up on the cutting room floor! I think they need to include it at least somehow, even if they change it up.

Anfinwen wrote:Eating talking stag: I watched the scene in the older version. First, what was a talking stag doing that far north? They traveled for days before reaching Harfang!


Now that IS strange, come to think of it. o_O Maybe there's some sort of Narnian Bermuda Triangle up there that messes with your sense of direction? :P

I can see how they might cut that out. On the one hand, I feel like they ought to keep it because it really illustrates the barbarianism of the Harfang giants, but that's also shown in their awful book of cookery and their intent to eat the questers. So, it may not be necessary. I've wondered if they might have the trio encounter the stag during their quest in order to add more gravity to when they realize he's their lunch, but I can imagine that the filmmakers might think that's unnecessarily traumatizing and distracting.

narnia fan 7 wrote:That seid if they were to keep the dream in the film I think it could potentially major it work, perhaps if some of the bizarreness where toned down and uesing it too reveal 'under me' too the characters, like maybe show Jill looking at the letter in her dream then cut straight to her Pudleglumm and Eustace looking at them in real life.


That's true! They might have Jill look out the window in the dream and show her reacting to something, then bolt awake in a gasp and then go to look at the moor. That's when the viewer sees what she saw in the dream.

bardiafox7 wrote:I actually hope they dont excise the dream sequence. Personally, it's one of my favorite parts of the book, it really gives more of the supernatural elements in Narnia(I also love it when it happens in The Last Battle). Also, it adds to the role of Aslan--that he has given this mission and is watching and holding them accountable. At the end, Jill mentions it to Aslan about forgetting; that dream sequence increases the depth of the dialogue and the forgiveness of Aslan.


Very good point! Not only does this scene help develop Jill's character, but it also develops Aslan's character, too... it shows that he can put people back on the right track even when they have messed up and failed him horribly.

(I see that this is your first post on the forum! Welcome to the discussion! :) )
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby Anfinwen » Aug 17, 2016 8:33 am

Welcome to Narniaweb bardiafox7 ! Those are really good points! You're right; the dream does make Aslan forgiving Jill all the more beautiful.
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Re: Changing & Rearranging SC

Postby The Rose-Tree Dryad » Aug 17, 2016 12:54 pm

I'm rereading SC and one thing that occurs to me as a likely change is the struggle on the cliff with Jill and Eustace. In the book, Eustace comes to save her, but she's so scared that she's lost control of her arms and legs and the struggle results in Eustace plunging over the cliff.

It reminds me a lot of how lifeguards say that sometimes a drowning person will appear to "fight" you when you're trying to save them: they're so desperate to keep their heads above water and survive that they grab onto anything, sometimes pushing their rescuer under water and endangering them both. The problem is, if you don't know this, you might think that the panicking drowning person was being a jerk, thinking only of saving themselves, when the reality is that they're in a primal survival mode. Jill seems to be in a similar state in the scene of the cliff, so I'm concerned that she'll come across as deliberately endangering Eustace when she was really just panicking.

I wouldn't be surprised if, instead, the filmmakers have a bit of the cliff give way with Jill standing on it and she falls down, only just holding on, and in the act of Eustace going to help her and helping her back up to safety, the faulty piece of cliff gives way completely under him. So it's still her fault that he fell because she was showing off and caused the whole problem, but there's no issue of Jill looking like a murderer. (Then again, though, I really do like that Eustace line about her trying to murder him. I love their bickering.)

I'm also a bit worried that, if this scene isn't done right, it might come across as humorous, especially if the fall happens very fast and suddenly... people falling off cliffs has been used for comic relief a bit too much. No Wilhelm screams, please.
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