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Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

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Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby PhelanVelvel » Jan 31, 2013 5:05 am

This post is long. :| Yes, they are children's books, I understand that, and I totally would want kids to be able to watch and enjoy any film version of Narnia, but the problem is that nowadays things marketed specifically at children are pretty shallow. People think that everything has to be Dora the Explorer or SpongeBob to appeal to children, but it's just not true.

In my opinion, the reason the Walden Narnia films (more particularly the third one, VDT) fail to capture all the spirit and magic of the books, and of course the underlying themes, is that Hollywood filmmakers are so desperate to have them appeal to kids that they don't bother to put anything deeper in there. In fact, I think they're afraid of it. They're afraid they're going to actually remain true to the spirit of the book and kids are going to be like I DUN GET IT MUM and reviews will say "too mature for kids" and they'll lose making money off all the people who are only going because their kids want to see the movie about the cute talking animals.

LWW and PC films were pretty good, I especially liked LWW. So I'm not specifically trying to slander them. (Although I do think they were trying too hard to be "kid-friendly"...it just felt too mild when it came to points that were actually darker in the books. Like the watered-down version, almost.) I just think that if filmmakers dare to make something that isn't the same safe, boring, infantile crap, they will be more likely to please critics, Narnia fans, and just regular moviegoers. You can make it appropriate and appealing for children and still draw them in with the imagery and story while keeping those underlying themes.

The books aren't meant for the immature...you have to be okay with not everything being lulz and explosions and teenagers kissing in order for them to make sense. So make the movies for intellectually mature children and adults. Can still be a family film. Just don't add unnecessary crap because "Yo, fourteen year-old girls are like ALL OVER THAT nowadays." I read these books when I was like, eight. Seriously. And I didn't get every single deep idea in them, but I still loved them. So kids can enjoy these stories EVEN IF THEY DON'T 100% COMPREHEND THE DEEPER STUFF. Just actually put that stuff in there so it's not utterly hollow. Kids may not be able to write a thesis on it, but I think many can sense when deeper meaning and emotion is there anyway.

If you love these books, you know that there are intense moments that unify the stories. If you've read them multiple times, you know exactly what these moments are. So when writing a screenplay, their roughest draft, why don't they just open the book and take notes: What's cute and funny? What would look visually spectacular on-screen? What was emotionally stirring? Which parts are hard to imagine really working in the movie, and how can you change them to work better? What are we supposed to get out of certain scenes? How are the characters supposed to develop and change and grow throughout, and how can you convey that? I'm sure this seems like a painfully obvious thing to do, but if you're honest with yourself about these questions, won't it give a better result?

Yes, you CAN add things, you CAN remove things. It's fine if you actually show Jill being bullied to set up what's going on at her school and why she's so miserable. Did it actually show the bullies getting after her in the book? No! It was like "There's these kids at her school who suck and bully her. Let me tell you about them. Okay, but they're not here right now. She just got done being bullied." But you can't say that in the movie, you have to show WHY this school sucks so badly. And that's fine. Show it. Let us get into her character and feel for her. But don't have Eustace just randomly fall off the cliff because he was stupid, show how Jill's arrogance and stubbornness caused him to fall. That's kind of a big deal. You don't really need to show that Jill waited like ten minutes after Glimfeather came to her window before they left. Just make sure we know how tired she is, and how comfortable she is, and how she isn't even thinking about the quest for the Prince anymore, then let Glimfeather come and interrupt it. I won't care if they leave at once as long as the same idea is there: she thought she was going to sleep. Flying out the window in the middle of the night was unexpected.

To me, it really feels that these movies, and a lot of movie adaptations of books today, in fact, are not about "How can I carefully craft an idea through cinematography?" It's like "How can I appeal to as many people at the same time?" I know the movie has to do well, money needs to be made, but these books are immensely popular. So it's not like you have to change a lot to make it appeal to people, they already appeal to people. Trust in what's in the classic book that's sold a bajillion copies. A certain level of humility is needed. I don't know. When I watch older films, like from the 50's and 60's, so often there are things conveyed just by shadow or the way light falls on a person's face, the way someone is standing, angles and shapes. You get a feeling from a character in a second because of the way it's set up visually. There's attention to detail. Can we get back to that?

The Silver Chair is mostly told from Jill's perspective...couldn't the film be also? She could be the main protagonist, easily. School girl being bullied? Not hard for kids to identify with. Someone wanting to get out of their own life and escape to a better place? That's your appeal to the masses right there, and it's all right in the book. People like trios of friends, don't they? (E.g. Harry, Ron, Hermione.) Well then...Jill, Eustace, Puddleglum. :| And Puddleglum is hilarious in a totally dry, sarcastic way. No poop jokes, no wackiness, just plain funny. People will love his comments. To me, the things that will draw people in but are just inherent parts of the book are obvious.

tl;dr: Problem with movie adaptations nowadays is the watering-down of intense aspects of the books to better accommodate a more juvenile vision that will appeal to children ages 7-14 or whatever. But there are things in the books ALREADY that will appeal to that age range while still leaving room for more mature themes and keeping the magic of the book intact.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby coracle » Feb 02, 2013 2:35 am

Aiming film adaptations of children's books at children [older children, not 4 year olds] doesn't seem unwise to me.
What has been a problem is that the level of the children's story appreciation has been reduced. Lewis talked about how children need to read the scary fairytales and legends, not to be protected from them.

I would still want to see the films aimed at children 5-12 and younger teens, so that families can enjoy them.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby PhelanVelvel » Feb 02, 2013 6:48 pm

coracle wrote:Aiming film adaptations of children's books at children [older children, not 4 year olds] doesn't seem unwise to me.
What has been a problem is that the level of the children's story appreciation has been reduced. Lewis talked about how children need to read the scary fairytales and legends, not to be protected from them.

I would still want to see the films aimed at children 5-12 and younger teens, so that families can enjoy them.


I agree with you, what I really meant (and you'd think I'd have managed to get it across in that wall of text, but I failed >_<) is that I don't want them to aim it at THEIR perception of what a child can enjoy, e.g. Spongebob. Like I said, I read LWW when I was about eight years old, and I don't think it was at all inappropriate for me. I don't think I got every single little detail that I notice now, but I still understood and enjoyed the whole story. I also liked reading Rudyard Kipling (Just So Stories and The Jungle Book), Lewis Carroll, and Roald Dahl. But people nowadays think children wouldn't appreciate those books. Or are too scary, in the case of stuff like The Jungle Book. I mean, why do they come out with those "abridged" or modernised versions of classic children's stories...they were meant FOR children, yet they need to edit out all the parts that aren't totally vanilla and safe. I know times change, and we shouldn't just keep doing something because it was done in the past, but I don't think there's anything wrong with kids reading classics, I don't think it would do any harm.

I just want a film adaptation that stays on the level of the books. Still for children, but not today's IDEA of what children are capable of understanding.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby Ithilwen » Feb 03, 2013 12:29 am

I think it's a double problem. The filmmakers think that it should be a movie aimed specifically at children (when really it should be aimed at everyone), and the filmmakers don't understand what a movie aimed at children should actually look like. Because honestly, there are a lot of old movies that were specifically aimed toward children that I can still enjoy as an adult. Not so with most of the movies-aimed-toward-children of today.

When did "make this movie for kids" equal "add in lots of cheesy jokes, bathroom humor, overacting, and poor plotting"? One would suspect they've forgotten what it's like to be a child. :-??


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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby PhelanVelvel » Feb 05, 2013 4:59 pm

Agreed...look at Nightmare Before Christmas. People of all ages love it. I still love it after all these years. But I can't really imagine people looking back on the most recent CGI "Smurfs" movie and being like "AH YES...A CINEMATIC CLASSIC." Lol.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby Glumpuddle » Feb 09, 2013 4:19 pm

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Excellent post, PhelanVelvel. I can't believe I haven't read it until now. I think I will read it again in a moment. :)

PhelanVelvel wrote:To me, it really feels that these movies, and a lot of movie adaptations of books today, in fact, are not about "How can I carefully craft an idea through cinematography?" It's like "How can I appeal to as many people at the same time?"


Well said. I think they tried to make children's films that would also appeal to adults. I think they should make adult films that will also appeal to children. CS Lewis said that if he liked a story as a child but didn't get anything out of it as an adult, the story was not worth reading in the first place. I love these books, and it has nothing to do with making me feel like a kid again. They appeal to me on a very adult level. The fact that children get into them too fascinates me.

Taking your post a step further, I now believe that a PG13 rating might be required for some films. One of the filmmakers' main concerns with the undragoning scene was to keep it PG. This was not the only reason the scene was such a disaster, but it's still a good example of how marketing held the production back.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby Purpleotter » Feb 10, 2013 6:10 pm

Phelan: I have to say that I disagree with you. There are several scenes in the move franchise, the second film especially, that are geared to hold an older audience's attention. probably not excessively, but still, they're in there. I can respect your opinion, but having the battle scenes and the suspenseful scenes in the movies tie everything together. On a side note the first and second films are my favorite over the third. Voyage of the Dawn Treader was kind of good but it doesn't have as much action as the other two.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby Glumpuddle » Feb 11, 2013 9:43 pm

Purpleotter wrote:Phelan: I have to say that I disagree with you. There are several scenes in the move franchise, the second film especially, that are geared to hold an older audience's attention.


LWW and PC: Essentially children's films that occasionally thrown in more mature themes. And they do a pretty good job at that. They're two decent films. But families, especially the 6-12 age group, was definitely the crowd they were most concerned about... and I think this held them back in some key areas, such as pacing.

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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby Rilian The Disenchanted » Feb 12, 2013 4:05 am

Chronicles Of Narnia are children's book. Problem with Voyage Of The Dawn Treader was not the tone, wich was alright, but some dialogue was uninspired and of course special effects were not as good as the first 2, but still better than most movies. Overall i think Walden Media did a good job on adapting the first 3 books.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby Glumpuddle » Feb 12, 2013 10:26 pm

Rilian The Disenchanted wrote:Chronicles Of Narnia are children's book.


C.S. Lewis said that if he enjoyed a story as a child, but didn't get anything out of it as an adult, it was not worth reading in the first place. Lewis had a different idea of what a "children's story" was than most people do today.

The Narnia books speak to me on a very adult level, and I think they are underrated because it never occurs to most people to look at them deeper.

Rilian The Disenchanted wrote:Overall i think Walden Media did a good job on adapting the first 3 books.


PC and LWW are okay. VDT was essentially an anti-Lewis movie.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby waterkid72 » Feb 13, 2013 12:53 am

glumPuddle wrote:
Rilian The Disenchanted wrote:Chronicles Of Narnia are children's book.


C.S. Lewis said that if he enjoyed a story as a child, but didn't get anything out of it as an adult, it was not worth reading in the first place. Lewis had a different idea of what a "children's story" was than most people do today.

The Narnia books speak to me on a very adult level, and I think they are underrated because it never occurs to most people to look at them deeper.

Rilian The Disenchanted wrote:Overall i think Walden Media did a good job on adapting the first 3 books.


PC and LWW are okay. VDT was essentially an anti-Lewis movie.


You know, I never understood why people dont look deeper into Narnia. The deep themes become rather obvious to adult and teenage readers. They are subtle, but you do not have to dig to deep. Anyway, I suppose modern audiences simply are not accostumed to the lack of excesive violence or romance.

And why do you consider VDT and anti-Lewis film exactly? Its not a faithful adaptation but the themes of the movie do not contradict the series themes or Lewis beliefs... in general.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby Ithilwen » Feb 13, 2013 7:43 pm

waterkid72 wrote:And why do you consider VDT and anti-Lewis film exactly? Its not a faithful adaptation but the themes of the movie do not contradict the series themes or Lewis beliefs... in general.

But they do, though. The book VDT had very strong themes of sin and not being able to rid oneself of one's own sin. This was shown in the undragoning chapter, when Eustace can't pull off the skin. He must have Aslan do it for him. Therefore, to be rid of sin and be worthy of Aslan's Country (Heaven), we must turn to Aslan (or God) to help purify us.

The movie VDT was all about earning your way into Aslan's Country. Which was basically (though perhaps unknowingly) preaching salvation through works. The opposite of Lewis's theme.


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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby King_Erlian » Feb 14, 2013 5:29 am

Ithilwen wrote:The book VDT had very strong themes of sin and not being able to rid oneself of one's own sin. This was shown in the undragoning chapter, when Eustace can't pull off the skin. He must have Aslan do it for him. Therefore, to be rid of sin and be worthy of Aslan's Country (Heaven), we must turn to Aslan (or God) to help purify us.

The movie VDT was all about earning your way into Aslan's Country. Which was basically (though perhaps unknowingly) preaching salvation through works. The opposite of Lewis's theme.


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I don't really agree with this. IMO, the only parts of the book of VDT that were about not being able to rid oneself of one's own sin were Eustace's undragoning and the episode with the Dark Island where dreams (nightmares) come true. I thought the film's depiction of the undragoning was a sensible and imaginative idea, given that they couldn't show Aslan digging his claws into Dragon-Eustace and tearing off the flesh, unless they wanted to turn the film into Nightmare On Elm Street Part XXXIV. As for the Dark Island, it works in the book but if they'd filmed it as written it would have looked rather anti-climactic (again, IMO). I don't think there was a deliberate conspiracy to make any message in the film the opposite of what Lewis intended.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby starkat » Feb 14, 2013 5:55 am

We're getting a wee bit off topic.

I think we can pretty much all agree that we want the films aimed more at families vs aimed specifically at ANY age group.

So what constitutes a good family film?

Dialogue? For me it would probably be something written that would be on the level of the older Nancy Drew and Hardy Boy books. Those were written in such a way that I could read them at age 9 and read them right now and not feel like I was reading a kids book.

Age of characters - Doesn't really matter what age the characters are, but I wish they would make more of an effort to stick to the ages in the book. I can understand say bumping up Caspian to say 15 or 16 and the same with Peter, but no older. It would make the movies a bit more accessible to kids, but with the right dialogue (like say LWW) Peter doesn't seem too old.

Make sure there isn't an over emphasis on special effects. VDT got a bit gimmicky due to the green mist and the glowing Rhindon. Bring it back to the level of LWW where the focus is on the cg animals and making sure they fit into the scene correctly.

Any other ideas?
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby twinimage » Feb 20, 2013 12:30 pm

I see what you're saying. Don't make them immature, unintelligent movies, just because it may appeal to kids more. Though my concern then would be, they would try to make it "dark, gritty and realistic" to appeal to teens and adults, which is the popular thing right now. That annoys me so much.

Hollywood's main goal is to make money, and they don't want to spend millions on someone taking a risk to make something artsy or intelligent, UNLESS it's a big name director that they know will be a big selling point for their film. A lot of people don't want to go watch something intelligent, they rather be entertained by loud explosions and crummy CGI. If that didn't make money, Hollywood would be making something else.

Also, Hollywood is lead by people that probably have a world view different from Lewis' writings. So at the end of the day, the movie's story is going to tell the same lame modern Hollywood messages that they always tell, whether it's aimed toward children or not. That of course will most likely cause them to simplify and water down the story and the dialogue. So, it's not always the target audience that's the issue, it's Hollywood in general.

I think it would help greatly if they had script writers that were familiar and understood the source material. At least then the movie would have a chance. So many comic book, video game and book movie adaptions turn out poorly because the script writer(s) and the director often aren't familiar with the source materials at all. If they did, then they would really know how to set the tone and who to target as an audience.
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Re: Don't make the next film specifically marketed at children.

Postby PhelanVelvel » Feb 27, 2013 2:25 pm

It's hard for me to even understand how people unfamiliar with the source materials are even allowed to make film adaptations. It should be a prerequisite to making a film adaptation to be familiar. >:[ I know that's not always the case, but if they don't want to get totally familiarised with the source material they should get "Diehard Clinically Obsessed Narnia Fan #29057" to sit there and give opinions on the production of the movie, lol. I know Gresham participated in the production of these movies and gave feedback and such, but I don't know too much about that. Either he just wasn't staunch enough in his vision, or he doesn't really have a vision for what should be conveyed cinematically, or they just didn't listen to him. I did enjoy the movies, but all the same, they felt too juvenile to me. And I enjoy watching Arthur and The Magic School Bus and Little Bear. So I don't have a problem watching juvenile stuff, it's that I felt the movie was more juvenile than the books, which made it seem less Narnian than I had hoped.

glumPuddle wrote:C.S. Lewis said that if he enjoyed a story as a child, but didn't get anything out of it as an adult, it was not worth reading in the first place. Lewis had a different idea of what a "children's story" was than most people do today.

The Narnia books speak to me on a very adult level, and I think they are underrated because it never occurs to most people to look at them deeper.


Naturally, I agree with this. :P It's the point I tried to drive at when I started this thread. The books are enjoyable for children and (unless you are very easily offended) appropriate for children. But there is so much more THERE than just a children's story. Anyone who has seen me post knows I am atheist, and I don't even care for the religious themes outside of discussion purposes. But I ironically refer to these books as my Bible, and the single-volume collection I have looks enough like one. It's not just that these books appeal to adults as well as children, they can appeal to anyone, given an open-minded perspective. There are so many things in the Narnia books that appeal to us as sentient beings with emotions, hopes, and fears, regardless of age or religion. You don't have to agree with every last belief Lewis had to enjoy his writing or watch his writing come to life on-screen.

Seems to me like the film-makers just go "Ah yes, the classic beloved CHILDREN'S series, the Chronicles of Narnia", and proceed to try and make it fit into their perception of what is "kid-friendly". That's why it will never work, because the Narnia books may be kid-friendly, but not in the way Nickelodeon is, and that's what people want nowadays. That's why they put abridged and revised versions of children's classics on the shelves, because apparently kids can't handle a little realism. And that's presumably why Disney can't seem to accomplish a decent film up to the standards of The Lion King or Aladdin, they've stripped their new stuff of all its realism.

Narnia doesn't expose kids to gratuitous violence or sex or other "mature" notions, but it does expose them to conflict and thoughtfulness...the characters don't crack a stupid joke every three seconds, the humour is subtle. The conflicts are more grave than "I totally have a crush on my BFF's BF!" And maybe that's why Harry Potter is so successful as a film, it's a lot of overt stuff, you don't have to dig deep to appreciate what's going on. I had friends when I was a child who would not touch Narnia because it was "old", and probably because things weren't spelt out for you. This has been said many times by many people, but the character development and the atmosphere are conveyed in bite-sized pieces that you expand upon by stringing them together and using your imagination.

Narnia is underrated, I think, for the same reason other classics in children's literature are underrated, people just can't seem to handle them in our modern era of iPhones and 3D movies. I'm a total futurist, but a lot of kids are probably so over-stimulated that Narnia seems bland and tedious.
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