Flat worlds

[Liberty Hoffman]

I was re-reading VotDT and it suddenly occurred to me, in comparison with the movie, that C.S. Lewis had a plot hole in the book.
in the movie, Lucy says to Edmund, "If we go far enough on the ocean, do you think we'll just tip off the edge?" and Edmund says, "We're pretty far from there, Lu."
in the book, Caspian is surprised to hear that Edmund and Lucy didn't know that Narnia was flat. I suddenly realized that this is sort of silly - Edmund and Lucy had been kings and queens in Narnia for 15 years and then returned in PC and then again in VotDT and in all that time didn't know that Narnia was flat.
I liked how in VotDT movie Lucy knew that Narnia was flat. it made more sense, IMO.




what do ya'll think?

[MinotaurforAslan]

Re-read VDT more carefully.

"I can't understand this," Drinian said. "There is not a breath of wind. The sail hangs dea. The sea is as flat as a pond. And yet we drive on as fast as if there were a gale behind us."

"I've been thinking that too," said Caspian. "We must be caught in some strong current."

"H'm," said Edmund. "That's not so nice if the World really has an edge and we're getting near it."

"You mean," said Caspian, "That we might be just - well, poured over it?"

"Yes, yes," cried Reepicheep, clapping his paws together, "That's how I've always imagined it-the World like a great round table and the waters of all the oceans endlessly pouring over the edge. The ship will tip up - stand on her head - for one moment we shall see over the edge, and then down, down, the rush, the speed - "

"And what do you think will be waiting for us at the bottom, eh?" said Drinian.

"Aslan's country, perhaps," said the Mouse, its eyes shining. "Or perhaps there isn't any bottom. Perhaps it goes down forever and ever. But whatever it is, won't it be worth anything just to have looked for one moment beyond the edge of the world."

"but look here," said Eustace, "this is all rot. The world's round - I mean, round like a ball, not like a table."

"Our world is," said Edmund, "But is this?"

"Do you mean to say," asked Caspian, "that you three come from a round world and you've never told me! It's really too bad of you. Because we have fairy-tales in which there are round worlds and I always loved them. I never believed there were any real ones. ut I've always longed to live in one. Oh, I'd give anything - I wonder why you can get into our world and we never get into yours? If only I had the chance! It must be exciting to live on a thing like a ball. Have you ever been to the parts where people walk about upside-down?"

What is implied here is that the topic of the world's shape is something that is never discussed, because it doesn't matter. Edmund recognizes the possibility of the world being flat, and brings it up because the topic is actually important. Even the Narnians don't seem to completely know about the shape of the world. They don't know if it's an infinite plane or if it has an edge.

Eustace is the one who doesn't have the knowledge and assumes every world is round.

The reason Caspian is surprised is that he has just found out that round worlds are real.

[AslanIsOnTheMove]

Interesting thought, Liberty Hoffman. But it would seem that the Narnians just assumed Narnia was flat as MinotaurforAslan pointed out. It isn't really known by anyone until they actually reach the end of the world to discover that it actually is flat.

But that is an interesting little hole. Why, if Narnia hadn't been proven to be flat, would Edmund assume it was? Edmund would've known that our own world was once mistakenly thought to be flat. It would seem the Narnians should be more worried about tipping off the edge than Edmund.

I am convinced that if you nitpick (not saying you're nitpicking) at the pooks like some people nitpick at the films you would find all sorts of flaws. And if you imaging quite hard you can explain away those flaws (just like you can with the films.) It amazes me how quick some are to defend things that don't make sense in the books, but how those same people are so anxious to point out any flaw they can find in the films and tear them down. I know the books came first, but still, the double standard on the forum is just crazy

[coracle]

There are quite a few inconsistencies in the books. The most obvious for VDT is that Lewis seemed to have forgotten that it was still wartime in the story period and wrote about how they had been kings and queens long ago back in the war. And had Mr & Mrs Pevensie and Susan travel off to America as if it was a normal safe thing to do (leaving their other children in England!).
But we forgive him for these - and the same for the flat world scenario.

[Anhun]

I agree. It seems clear to me that C.S. Lewis didn't take the Narniaverse near as seriously as some Narnia fans. He didn't agonize over every little detail. He just wanted to create fun adventure stories that children would find entertaining with deeper themes that adults and more perceptive children would find stimulating. There are a lot of inconsistencies, as you said. Such as the truncation of World War 2, and the fact that Eustace somehow lost his nerdiness between the ending of VDT and the beginning of SC . There are also a few things that could have done with a note of explanation, such as Jadis being all alone at the end of MN, but her being part of a "crew" mentioned in SC. Strictly speaking, that's not inconsistent, but it does leave one scratching one's head.

Now, don't get me wrong, some of the complaints about the PC and VDT movies are quite valid. It just annoys me when people complain that the movies aren't faithful to the details of the books, when C.S. Lewis himself wasn't faithful to the details.

[Eustace]

Maybe the reason Edmund assumed it could be flat because he never heard anything about the countries further. The reason we mostly believe that our world is round is mostly because we have heard of countries all around the world. He had ruled in Narnia for years and years and if you never heard of countries past the Lone Islands and no one knows on any of the Islands of the countries beyond, and RD says,''You can sail farther but this is the begining of the end.'' You might just wonder.

[Lirenel]

There are also scientific ways to prove a world is round, including the observance of lunar eclipses and some specific way of measuring shadows. If Narnia doesn't have lunar eclipses that show a round shadow of the earth - and the centaurs would surely know - then it is possible that the Narnians could have figured out that their world was flat. Edmund might know this, though Eustace would have deemed it impossible.

[MinotaurforAslan]

I liked how in VotDT movie Lucy knew that Narnia was flat. it made more sense, IMO.

I dunno... ...to me, it made Lucy sound delusional. Her line, "Do you think we'll just tip off the edge" without any context implied that she still had the mindset of a 13th century peasant in regards to the shape of the earth. It would have helped if they saved that line for a scene where they had a lot of context to make it sound less weird, like in the book.

It amazes me how quick some are to defend things that don't make sense in the books, but how those same people are so anxious to point out any flaw they can find in the films and tear them down. I know the books came first, but still, the double standard on the forum is just crazy

It's not exactly like that. I know there are flaws in the books. But Liberty's understanding of what was going on in that scene was incorrect, so I was just clarifying it for her.

[stateofgreen]

…..There are a lot of inconsistencies, as you said. Such as the truncation of World War 2, and the fact that Eustace somehow lost his nerdiness between the ending of VDT and the beginning of SC . …..

Slightly off-topic---maybe we could do with another thread about inconsistencies in the books ---but I don’t think Eustace lost any of his nerdiness, it probably became a bit muted as he aged, but he never lost it.

I liked how in VotDT movie Lucy knew that Narnia was flat. it made more sense, IMO.

I dunno... ...to me, it made Lucy sound delusional. Her line, "Do you think we'll just tip off the edge" without any context implied that she still had the mindset of a 13th century peasant in regards to the shape of the earth. It would have helped if they saved that line for a scene where they had a lot of context to make it sound less weird, like in the book.

I also thought that very uncharacteristic and off for Lucy to say that when I heard it in the movie. It really should have been in the context of a group discussion about this subject. BTW I know fanfiction isn’t allowed here, but on FanFiction.Net, someone called Qoheleth’s written an amusing tale of the ‘flat vs round world’ discussion--called funnily enough, “Pole to Pole”.

[Conina]

The flatness in Narnia represents a different way of looking at the world as do the presence of mythological creatures and talking animals. The reason that Edmund, Lucy etc. are unsure about what the world's end is like is that there are no scientists in Narnia. Here in the land of Spare Oom, since the axioms of Sir. Francis Bacon, the western world understands the world in terms of imperical studies, statistics, and paradigms. C.S. Lewis took a negative view of people who see the world only in this way. Examples include: Uncle Andrew's lab and his "experiments." How Eustace studies subjects not for the love of the subject but for what marks he gets. Eustace's tendency to stick insects through with pins and label them. Even more blatantly: the awfulness of "Experiment House" and the Telmarine schools in Narnia from SC and PC respectively.

In the world of Narnia, Lewis is reawakening the world of mythology and active imaginations. Characters are allowed to let their imaginations run wild over the possibilities of what will be found beyond the lone islands a la MinotaurforAslan's quote from VDT (book).

Lewis doesn't mind the use of science, he just minds the cutting off of emotions and imagination that he worried was happening in western schools at the time. He was afraid that the students were becoming "Men without chests" like Eustace is at first. See Abolition of Man.

In my opinion the film's treatment of a flat Narnian was made by men without chests. The original meaning is lost because the people making it didn't understand it to begin with. I am not bothered by logical lapses in the film or the books so much as the loss of depth in this film when compared with the book.

[stateofgreen]

Great post Conina.

In my opinion the film's treatment of a flat Narnian was made by men without chests.

LOL! I agree. I haven't read much Lewis but what I've read of him mentions his being a scholar of Medieval and Renaissance Literature...so the whole flat world thing seemed to me like him having fun and setting VDT Narnia in a similar age of discovery akin to the scientists and explorers of the "New World", Galileo, Columbus, etc.

[Conina]

stateofgreen, thanks for the kind words. I like your idea about them potentially being in a Narnian age of discovery. One that doesn't involve them separating self from soul (read Out of the Silent Planet or the others from his space trilogy). So in a sense Lewis is creating a more perfect renaissance.

[Valiant]

That was one of my favorite parts of the book. I to wish they had kept it in, but these things happen when adapting a movie.

Maybe they didn't want to go into details about the shape of the Narnian world vs our world. At the speed they were going, maybe they didn't have time to put it in. Its a shame if that is the reason because keeping the "Flat world" part would have added depth to the world/story. I hope they had better reasons for cutting that part out.