EUSTACE SWEARS IN DAWN TREADER???

[Ithilwen]

^^ I'm not sure what you mean. You mean Aslan swears twice? Which parts are those? I don't remember them... (It's been a while since I read the books).


~Riella

[coracle]

Ithilwen, when Aslan speaks to a donkey, he uses the 3-letter word (beginning with A) which is the synonym for the word donkey. It is not rude or swearing for him to use the correct term (any more than when he says "dwarf" or "elephant"). The same 3-letter word also gets used as a lightweight insult meaning 'fool', as in "You silly ___".

In America, the meaning of that three-letter word has been changed to mean "backside" in a rude sense. In England it has not been; England has a different word for the same short name for backside (sounds similar, spelled differently - whatever the historical development of the word was!)

So no, Aslan didn't swear. But when an American reads it they might be surprised at his words.

[waggawerewolf27]

Yes, Aslan called Rabadash the donkey synonym word at the end of HHB, I believe. And yes he meant the British meaning for the donkey synonym, not the identically said and spelt American synonym for a backside, also known anatomically and medically as a Gluteus Maximus and which is a necessary, if despised, part of all living human beings. As we all know if for some reason we develop lumbago or bruise our posteriors.

You can get the same confusion of meaning when Americans refer to bums, meaning tramps, and not as we do, as bums on seats. Oh dear! It seems in America, that tramps also mean something else than they do in UK, in particular, where tramps are destitute and often homeless people. Whereas in Australia we might call them swagmen or swaggies, especially during the Great Depression of the 1930's when men would travel around looking for work, carrying their worldly goods in a swag, just like in our national song, Walzing Matilda. I wonder what the New Zealanders make of all this variety in meanings, Coracle?

And why are these distinctions important? And why would Graymouser be right about Jack Lewis's being amused by this discussion? Because much of what is regarded as profanity has nothing to do with the words themselves and everything to do with the offensive and pejorative attitudes behind them.

C.S.Lewis, of course, being a professor of English at both Oxford and Cambridge was well aware of this. He even shows it in HHB, in other places, such as during Rabadash's interview with the Tisroc, overheard by Aravis and Lasaraleen. What about in LB where Emeth's statement that 'he is but a dog' is discussed by the dogs who comment they sometimes call their naughty pups boys or girls?

And what about MN's Uncle Andrew calling Jadis 'a dem fine woman'? We know that 'dem' is a watered down version of a word I am not allowed to use on this site, which because of too much profane use, cannot even be used in its correct application as a synonym for condemned.

As his Oxford colleague, Lewis Carroll's March Hare would have said about saying what one means or meaning what one says.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Wagga, you crack me up but you make very good points. I guess, when I was referring to The Cosmic Trilogy, I didn't expect that level of language in a book by a Christian author. Some years have passed since I first read the series and I've learnt and grown a lot since then. I know the context. It doesn't bother me now. If the language was used by the author to disrespect God, I wouldn't stand for it. But Lewis wasn't doing that.

[Arvan]

Well it does bother me a bit that Ransom says he's a Christian but swears on multiple occasions; not that real Christians don't often do the same, of course...

[TheWarriorQueen]

It is the scene where Eustace decides to selfishly desert his ship mates and flee in a boat-"you're a boat in a magical land, can't you row yourself?" to save himself from becoming a slave! when he clumsly slips and conveniently knocks the knife wielding slave trader into the water with an oar, and saying this...

"Oh God, I hope that wasnt the british consult"...

I heard this and well, it really didn't shock me and my opinion of it is that Eustace wasn't a believer at the time and so it wasn't really some big thing (for him), though I do see your point and agree that it shouldn't have happened.

I tell you what really shocked me though, when I read The Magician's Nephew and Polly called Digory an a** you know what. I couldn't believe it and actually read that line like 4 times and then asked myself did I have a cheap and/or messed up version of TMN! Seriously, I did. I had no idea the books had some swearing and Uncle Andrew's 'a dem fine woman' Wow, thats strange.

[Bookwyrm]

Eh, I could understand being upset if it were the f-bomb being dropped, but that's a relatively minor offense, especially given that Eustace is not a Christian and these movies are not being written by Christians. As for the Britishisms that Americans insist on getting riled up about, again, it's a different culture. The Brits have different ideas about what "bad" words are. Even if the characters were swearing, they're relatively mild swears even in America. Nothing to be upset about. And that's not even getting into the absurdity of deciding that certain words in a language are "naughty" and should never be spoken.

[Hermitess of Narnia]

"omp" is taking God's name in vain. If I said, "Jesus is my God." I would be serious. However, "omp" is just a phrase to some people and meant as a phrase. I don't think Lewis was trying to be insultive toward God when Jill and Eustace use it so much, I think Lewis just meant it as a phrase. Still, Trumpkin's "Beards and Bedsteads" was much more interesting.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Um. How is "Omp" taking God's name in vain?

[wolfloversk]

Um. How is "Omp" taking God's name in vain?

She was avoiding taking God's name in vain herself... the last letter's not "p"

Anyways I had wondered about the "donkey synonym" myself. I was wondering it's been 50-60 years since these books were written, perhaps it was not such a bad word back then?

[Hermitess of Narnia]

No, it really was an accident; shows I'm not used to typing that myself. Still works, though.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Okay, cheers, because writing omp! is not taking God's name in vain, spelt out it is though (also it's the intent behind the words).

Wolfloversk, the word 'ass' is pronounced and spelt differently to the American term. It wasn't considered a bad word back then and it still isn't (in England and much of the world). I really don't see why people get all up in arms about such things.

[Conina]

In "A Midsummer's Nights Dream" the character Nick Bottom gets his head turned into a donkey's head. That might be how the synonym for donkey in question got turned into a reference to the backside. It would make an interesting study I'm sure.

I didn't even notice the swear word in the movie although it doesn't really surprise me. I think sometimes in literature it can be alright if its depicting how the character would talk in that situation. To have someone like Eustace or Jill have some blasphemy is sadly most likely realistic. They did go to boarding school with low supervision standards. So there were not many adults around who cared enough to teach the kids to clean up their language.

[Bookwyrm]

Just some clarification, the forum software automatically changes the abbreviation Hermitess meant to use to OMP, which stands for Oh my platypus. We got tired of PMing people to edit the other abbreviation.

[wolfloversk]

Wolfloversk, the word 'ass' is pronounced and spelt differently to the American term. It wasn't considered a bad word back then and it still isn't (in England and much of the world). I really don't see why people get all up in arms about such things.

Intriguing... I will admit there are some swear words that I never understood why they were considered bad... that being one of them. It was probably just being used frequently enough as a substitute here that people got upset over it. I know too some terms are generational... one generation considers it bad and another doesn't.

[waggawerewolf27]

Just some clarification, the forum software automatically changes the abbreviation Hermitess meant to use to OMP, which stands for Oh my platypus. We got tired of PMing people to edit the other abbreviation.

You aren't supposed to own platypuses (platypi?) If the powers that be thought people were carting off poor little platypi overseas they'd be on their case like a ton of bricks. Judging by the queasiness about the American donkey synonym, I'd say OMP stands for Oh my plumber!

[quote=TheWarriorQueen"]I tell you what really shocked me though, when I read The Magician's Nephew and Polly called Digory an a** you know what. [/quote]

When was this in the book? I know about Uncle Andrew's swearing. He does so in the same way as many men did at the turn of the 20th Century. "Dem" sounded more genteel than did the proper word.