Hey back,
Smartypie!
Yes, I'm a journalism major -- so I suppose that means I'm an "English guy." To complete the basic intro: I'm a local journalist and online columnist, focusing especially on the fields of Godly-imagination-meets-Biblical-truth. My years of involvement with NarniaWeb -- and a moderator for five years -- has contributed to this experience.
But, I will remind you and I both that Experience gets trumped by clear Biblical truth every time. More on that below ... I disbelieve in a sort of Christian caste system based on Experience, though of course God can teach us wisdom through His Word by using our experiences to point to His Word. Am I questioning your understanding of His Word so far as regards the plain-English (translations, of course) parts? Nope. But when you go for all this numerology stuff, that shows a clear contradiction to what the Word has said -- especially when you've claimed a secular movie script could even possibly be as inspired as Scripture itself was.
As
Ithilwen said above, the
Dawn Treader film was full of anti-Gospel (regardless of the writers' intentions), pro-human-ability messages. Even if God were still revealing truths directly today, in the same way He's revealed them in inerrant Scripture, He would not contradict Himself or else be a) incompetent and idiot, b) a lying tyrant.
Alas! I know that using such words can come across wrong on the internet, a text-only medium, especially when we do not know each other and could easily and automatically assume that the other guy is surely a Bad Guy who Must be Stopped at All Costs. By zeal, I hope, through the grace of God that has saved this wretched sinner from God's righteous wrath to instead delight in His love and truth, is not to Be Right but to point to the Righteous One, Who always speaks clearly when He does speak, and is not so cruel as to tell us or even imply that we should listen for some kind of extra revelation, or dig in for some supposed deeper-layer in ways the Biblical writers never intended.
At this point you may feel a bit defensive; I hope to respond to your material in a point-by-point fashion, not to seem adversarial, but to keep things as clear as I can. Also, as you seem to enjoy knowing more about your civil opponents -- a reassuring habit! -- feel free to investigate the links in my signature, especially YeHaveHeard, to learn more about what Biblical truths I like to write about, and myths I find to bust, and why.
Smartypie wrote:If you were living in the 1st century or earlier, you wouldn't have asked this question.
Interesting. Which reference works on hermeneutics and exegesis confirm this guess about the Original Readers? I'm with you on seeking to understand a text the way its original readers would have understood it. But I don't think you realize that looking in
every genre of Scripture for number codes (secret or otherwise) is an utter violation of right hermeneutics. I might as well read what you wrote and add up all the numbers of your words (converted to Hebrew) and start finding "plain meanings" (not so plain to the Uninitiate) that could contradict what you actually meant to say!
Their letters were their numerals. Common knowledge and second nature to read words as numbers. Rev 13:18 -" Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
Whatever that means -- and this former
Left Behind end-times aficionado is well aware of the many theories about that! -- we find that John specifically asked people to determine the Beast's "number." What he doesn't say: do this for everything else. In fact, the very reason he singles this is out is likely because this is something unusual.
I'll keep repeating my question (which you haven't answered):
where in Scripture are we encouraged to seek extra knowledge from the use of numbers? And even if that were true,
why look for more from other sources that are non-Christian, and contradict the revealed Word?
I don't believe I said anything about being secret. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Ask an observant Jew or go to a Messianic synagouge.
Mmm. I have seen many people trying to recapture First-Century Understandings who end up rabbi-chasing and Jewish-culture-enjoying so much that they miss the whole point of the Old Testament, the Law, the entire revelation of Scripture: Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1). Any Hebrew scholar or Jewish mystic who misses
that absolutely
huge overarching storyline can't be trusted to show some other reading mode.
Why do you suppose Matthew brings up the point that Christ's geneology can be broken into 3 groups of 14? Matt 1:17
Oh, many reasons, and yours is only one theory. Some believe Matthew phrased it that way to help people memorize the genealogy. But regardless of his reason, the fact remains that Matthew abridged the genealogy. Here's a summary from the ESV Study Bible:
Authors of the ESV Study Bible commentary on Matthew wrote:Matthew does not mean all the generations that had lived during those times but “all” that he included in his list (for he evidently skipped some, such as three generations between Joram and Uzziah [Azariah] in v. 8; cf. 1 Chron. 3:10–12); cf. note on Matt. 1:6b–11. Perhaps for ease of memorization, or perhaps for literary or symbolic symmetry, Matthew structures the genealogy to count 14 generations from each major section.
Shouldn't we ensure to use the clearer parts of Scripture -- such as its sufficiency and finality -- to interpret the less-clear parts?
Is it just a coincidence that David = 14 in Hebrew? As a tax collector, I'm sure he was well aware of that fact.
Apparently to you this has some Meaning and is somehow a proof for, again, looking in the Bible for Numeric Codes (secret or otherwise) to learn new things, which Scripture doesn't encourage us to do. I'm just missing the correlation between "isn't this an interesting equivalent that Matthew brought out" and "that means these parallels are everywhere!"
By the way, I don't think this is some kind of heresy. I may disagree with it, but that won't keep you from being a true Christian or something! But it's the part about using the same technique on, of all things, a secular movie script, where things get dicey.
Dawn Treader's scriptwriters may or may not have written an excellent script (hint:
not), or been Christians, but either way, no one is inspired in the same way Scripture's writers were.
BTW, the 1st occurance of 14 = Gold. All the furniture in the tabernacle was made of pure gold. The lampstand was beaten out of one solid piece. The letters that spell David give a picture of the crucifixtion, the ark of the covenant, and other things that I won't go into here.
My reminder is that we don't need all these things to prove that David forecast the Messiah from his line. These truths are presented far more clearly in other Scriptures, such as Psalm 22. Moreover, if we truly believe that the Bible is God's revealed Word and sufficient, our ultimate authority, why try to apply some kind of alternate logic to its contents, as if the proof we find in plain language isn't enough?
I say this not to condemn, but to encourage you. And if you here displayed the same level of enthusiasm for the Bible's clear prophecies and claims in plain language, I might not be so picky. But from here it sounds like
The Bible Code of last decade, and reading the Bible alongside
The Wall Street Journal to determine who is and isn't Gog and/or Magog today. Perhaps you hold the clearest words of Scripture in higher regard elsewhere, though!
Orthodox Jews believe that every stroke of the pen is significant. Even Jesus said as much in Matt 5:18
Amen. That's why it's important to give value to Scripture, and not equal value to Some Other Thing. Moreover, Christ was making the jot-and-tittles point to ensure we know that He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it completely. And again, any scholar, first-century or otherwise, Jew or otherwise, who misses that is missing the whole point.
In my original question, I wrote:2. God has never stopped giving new revelation, even through the work of non-Christian scriptwriters?
2. Where does it say He has?
Nope, I'm afraid it's incumbent on you to prove that He hasn't, when:
1) Scripture in its self-references, Old Testament and New Testament -- Jesus about the OT being God's Word, NT writers about one another's books being God's Word -- claim to be God's Word.
2) Revelation includes a warning, for itself as a book (and likely for the rest of Scripture) not to add or detract from the Bible.
3) Supposed extra words from the Lord must be consistent, emphasize Christ, not be contradictory and point back to the Word of God. They are not miracles for their own sake, or "further" proof of the Gospel. Christ is the final Word, better than the Law, the prophets, angels, the sacrificial system, any other religion (the book of Hebrews). Why look for more?
To claim that God is still showing us new things (even contradictory "truths") through
non-Christian scriptwriters is decidedly non-kosher!
Why treat His actual revealed Word so casually? How do you think Jesus feels about that?
Your Word isn't sufficient, Lord -- I think I'll go find more from a devotional, or a poorly written movie script ... And if you doubt that the script was not only poorly written but horribly flawed in its "theology," not only compared with the Bible but with the
Dawn Treader story itself, I can explain that here, or point to other threads.
Please understand, I can sympathize with that feeling. There are many ideas about there about how we could try to get in touch with God in ways that tell us new things about Him. But is that recommended in Scripture? Or do we already possess the truth we need from God and need to pray His Spirit will help us become more aware of it?
In my review of the mystical 'devotional' 'Jesus Calling,' I wrote:In Ephesians 1, the apostle Paul’s loving letter to a new church, he prays for them: not that they would find new wisdom, but that they would have “the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints” (verse 18), through Christ’s death and resurrection. Jesus, open their eyes to the amazing salvation and spiritual riches You’ve already given them!
3. Your whole argument nullifies all of Narnia. I don't see the point.
Actually it nullifies only the most recent movie's per-version. Moreover, I can enjoy the
Chronicles even if I disagree with their author's other beliefs that were flat wrong and un-Biblical (examples: vagueness about Christ's
substitutionary atonement in
Mere Christianity, theistic evolution and ignoring Genesis in
The Problem of Pain). That was my point. And surely we can enjoy any artistic work by a Christian without claiming it's inspired on the same level as Scripture. I hope I haven't misunderstood you here. Is that what you meant to say: that if
Narnia is great and Biblical, it must be inspired?
Are you suggesting I'm naive and/ or don't know my Bible?
Hey, we're all sorting through the contents of this amazing Book, the epitome of God's revelation. I haven't Arrived at a perfect understanding; have you?
My parents went to Moody Bible Institute, were missionaries in Panama and Ecuador, and raised me to love the Lord. I did crossover to the Seventh Day Adventist church in my early 30's (to the dissappointment of my parents), but have quit going there since around 2001.
Follow me, please, on this humorous and rhetorical example: well,
my parents went to Moody Bible Institute
and Wheaton College
and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and were missionaries in Panama, Ecuador
and Iran during the overthrow of the Shah in 1979, and I was raised to love the Lord and stayed out of Seventh-Day Adventism entirely.
I hope you see my point? Not only does my "Christian Cred" not count if I'm saying something un-Biblical, but if you try to make only it count toward your status as an Authority, someone else will always come along and trump you. The Apostle Paul, frequently, appealed not to his Positive Religious Experience but to all the times he was persecuted -- and even then, it was his secondary argument, against the "super-apostles" who claimed they were so religiously wise. Either way, he asked them to test not what anyone said based on their Experiences, but with the Gospel.
(References available for all those upon request.)
Moreover, when it comes to experience, the Apostle Peter has us all trumped. He happened to have had
the mountaintop experience of a lifetime, in which Jesus Himself transformed into a vision of glory and splendor, shining like a supernova, and joining long-departed saints for a chat about His plans. But, Peter quickly added, "
we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place" (from 2 Peter 1:16-20).
The average SDA knows more about the Bible than the typical fundamentalist/ conservative Christian.
I've met some great SDA-ers, though it seems we both know the denomination has issues (just as culturally fundamentalist denominations and churches do, such as little extreme-free-willie, anti-particular-music-genre, anti-a-lot-else, women-always-wear-skirts-or-be-rebels churches). But because of that whole insistence on Saturday-worship-or-else-you've-bought-into-the-Mark-of-the-Beast thing, I don't think SDAers get credit for understanding the main point of the Bible -- Christ has set us free to delight in Him, not separate over secondary issues -- any more than does the well-versed Baptist who wrongly thinks "whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven" (Matthew 18) has to do with yelling at demons.
So yeah, I did find your last sentence, in bold no less, a bit condescending.
But I'd say that to any fellow brother or sister in the Lord, regardless of their experience or Scripture memory, who seems to be de-valuing the Word by looking for more of it elsewhere, especially from non-Christian writers who overtly contradict the Bible
and the "Narnia" book.
I have 3 wonderful adult children and 3 delightful grandchildren. I assure you, I understand the complete depravity of my sinful flesh and my utmost dependence on my Savior's blood to wash my "garments" Rev 7:14
Great to know. And if it weren't for Christ's word to fulfill the Old Covenant with the new, we'd all still be walking around dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2) and with hearts of stone.
PS I seriously doubt you want a detailed explanation of why I study gematria. (I know, my stereotyping of English people. I eat lunch with 2 of them every day at school.
) I can give you some links that will save me a lot of typing and if you are willing to wade through some of it, you might be surprised.
I think it's an interesting hobby, but doesn't automatically lend itself to going digging for long theories about this-or-that word equaling this number so that we can "prove" Scripture even more than Scripture even more plainly, without Special Knowledge, proves itself. This is my view, but it's quite entrenched due to the bad fruits I've seen from those who try to go digging like that. Everyone I've heard from ends up finding anti-Biblical beliefs, such as "I know when Jesus will come back, based on the Numbers I've put together" (i.e. Harold Camping), or, sorry to say, "This movie script is clearly inspired based on the Numbers I found."
I realize that the plain reading of scripture is the first priority. I do that. Just think of what also I'm doing as something similar to stamp collecting, painting, rock climbing, etc.
If not for those anti-Biblical beliefs that devalue the actual revealed Word -- which rules out transmission of new inspired truths, especially to non-Christians, and knowing the date or hour of Christ's return -- I'd have no issue with gematria. Perhaps you could help me see its more-Biblical fruits that make it more of, like I said, an interesting hobby -- as you said below? No Christian should go chasing after a hobby like stamp-collecting or rock-climbing, as if that's less Spiritual! But if it starts somehow bringing in anti-Biblical beliefs ... well, a Christian must act in love to point that out and show where the contradictions are, do you agree?
We do those things for the detailed creativity, the beauty, the challenge, and that occassional take-my-breath-away moment. And I've had those moments where the tears fell to the point where I had to get on my knees and praise God for His matchless beauty.
I've certainly had similar moments, especially as a fiction writer. Yet I also try to recall that nature confirms God's existence; Scripture alone confirms what He is like, what He's been doing, is doing, and will do!
PPS What do you get when you lay 7 swords on Aslan's table besides the blue light special? 14 sectors or rays like a lighthouse! And now you know one of the "secret" riddles of my username.
Oh, you did have me for just a second. But please,
please do not torture me about the Seven Swords.
If
The Chronicles of Narnia books were canon, the Seven Swords are heresy. A totally useless, cliched and unexplained Quest, detracting from Aslan's Country ... the offenses go on and on.
J/K, actually, I wanted to be a "smartypants" in a sort of self depracating way, but it was already taken. I had noticed the time was 3:14, so I went with the smartypie even though I was cringing as submitted it.
I remember
smartypants, and at first I thought you were him/her (I think it was a her). Of course, you could have done
Smarty Pants or
smarty_pants or some derivative. If you ever want to change that word -- as opposed to, by accident, seeming to endorse a change to the real Word!
-- I certainly won't object, and while wearing my moderator hat would be glad to arrange that change for you.
Glad to find the time to interact further on this issue. Now for some other writing, while I'm still recovering from a cold and allergies. Godspeed.
Did I mention that I'm slow and absentminded? 
In reality, you and I probably believe much of the same things. ( I have skimmed over your website.) I think I may have given the wrong impression in my previous posts. I'm not a very good communicator when it comes to the written word. I do much better when I'm talking. 
. Each letter has three values. Ordinal (position in the alphabet), Standard (standard gematria, google it), and Combined or what I like to call, exalted (ord + std)
(