Fire berries

[Boy Scout]

I was just wondering, is there some Chirstain influance in the fire berries in VDT? I've read some books on Narnia and Chirstianity and I don't remeber anything about the berries.

Criticism welcome.

[Shy Galadriel]

Yeah... for the other mythological bits (Greek mythology, others) I got the references. But I never really caught the fire-berries thing. It could be something he made up on his own. I always kind of thought that.

[220chrisTian]

I was about to ask you where the fire berries appear in VDT. But I suddenly remembered the scene with Ramandu and the birds. Check out these quotes [and the Bible verses to match them -- sort of. ]

VDT
"But Lucy, looking out from between the wings of the birds that covered her, saw one bird fly to the Old Man with something in its beak that looked like a little fruit, unless it was a little live coal, which it might have been, for it was too bright to look at. And the bird laid it in the Old Man's mouth." (Chapter 14, 206-07)

Bible
Isaiah 6:6-7: "Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: and he laid it upon my mouth and said, 'Lo, this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquity is taken away and thy sin purged.'"
Hebrews 13:15: "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

VDT
"Every morning a bird brings me a fire-berry from the valleys in the Sun, and each fire-berry takes away a little of my age." (Chapter 14, 208)

Bible
Job 33:25: "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth."
Psalm 103:5: "Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's."

So what do you think?

[Shy Galadriel]

Bingo! Hast hit it! That sounds spot on to me. Good thinking 220chrisTian.

[220chrisTian]

Thanks, Shy. So what do you think about Lewis's "translation" of these Bible quotes into VDT?

[Devin Brown]

Hello this is Devin Brown with a comment from my book--Sorry for the length!

A Fire-Berry from the Valleys in the Sun
One bird flies to Ramandu and places what looks like “a little live coal” in his mouth. The birds then peck the table clean and take flight back toward the rising sun. On the next page Ramandu explains, “Every morning a bird brings me a fire-berry from the valleys in the Sun, and each fire-berry takes away a little of my age.”

Critics have seen various associations in this image. Marvin Hinten sees “a striking parallel” to the scene from Isaiah 6 where one of the seraphim touches Isaiah’s lips with a live coal. Wayne Martindale also sees this scene as “reminiscent of Isaiah” and claims that Ramandu’s fiery coal “makes him younger, but more importantly, it symbolizes purification from sin and preparation to meet Aslan.” Walter Hooper suggests that, like Isaiah, Ramandu “is unable to speak” until a live coal is laid on his lips, a claim which is difficult to support or disprove—Ramandu does not talk until after eating the fire-berry, but it is not clear that this is due to an inability to speak since he is able to sing.

If there is a connection between Ramandu and Isaiah, it is an indirect one. As Paul Ford observes, although the image may be “reminiscent” of the purification of the prophet Isaiah, “the dynamic of Ramandu’s rejuvenation is very dissimilar.” Three significant dissimilarities are particularly prominent.

First, the scene with Isaiah recounts the prophet’s initial call from God. In the scene with Ramandu, the star has long ago finished a lifetime of service.

Secondly and perhaps most importantly, Isaiah’s immediate emotional response to this call is one of shame and anguish as he cries out, “Woe to me! I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips” (6:5). Isaiah’s reaction has no parallel in Ramandu’s situation. In fact, since Ramandu has faithfully fulfilled his duties to Aslan, his emotional position is the complete opposite of shame and anguish.

Thirdly, Isaiah’s coal is a purifying fire which touches his unclean lips and in doing so cleanses them. The seraphim tells Isaiah, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for” (6:7). By contrast Ramandu’s coal is described as “a little fruit” (207) and a “fire-berry” (208), a thing he actually consumes like we might eat a berry or piece of fruit ourselves. Its purpose is not purification or atonement but rejuvenation.

[RoseRed]

I don't think it was a parallel but it may have been an inspiration?
plus, there are many many mythologies surrounding various types of berries, some of which I am sure could have also inspired C.S.

[Lirenel]

Possibly it was also inspired by the Eucharist (Lord's Supper). After all, they are a food of mystery sent by God to bring life to Ramandu, just like the Eucharist is a Mystery given by God to help bring us life.

Remember, Lewis was Anglican and his Catholic friend, Tolkien, was particularly devoted to the Eucharist. He might not have viewed the Eucharist as a 'symbol' like many mainstream Protestants, but more of the High Church view of the Eucharist as a sacrament with real power. (I don't know a lot about Lewis's personal view on this, so I may be exaggerating without knowing).

[waggawerewolf27]

Bible: Isaiah 6:6-7: "Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: and he laid it upon my mouth and said, 'Lo, this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquity is taken away and thy sin purged.'"

Interesting quote! It does explain the Narnian fire-berries from a Biblical point of view, of course. But as applied to VDT and Ramandu's Island, does it suggest that Coriakin was not the only ex-star that had been found wanting? That maybe Ramandu, also, had been somewhat less than perfect? We never get an explanation for the fact that he has a daughter, beautiful or otherwise, do we?

[RoseRed]

the Isiah quote does seem to have some interesting links, but I don't think you can take it as far as that waggawerewolf27 I doubt Lewis meant it beyond the obvious, and may have simply found the idea inspiring. (I doubt he meant to imply anything negative or not about ramandu, especially not with regards to his daughter, though how she came to be is certainly an interesting question )

[sweeetlilgurlie]

I can see a bit of a parallel from the bit in Isaiah, but I think that it's a mistake to go around Lewis's books and try to find a direct Biblical root for everything he wrote. Lewis himself made clear that the books aren't allegories. Some bits, in my opinion, are just the way they are. You take them as Lewis describes them.

[Tirian541]

Also the point that they are called "Fire Berries"....

In Jeremiah 23:29 "Is not My WORD like a Fire? saith the Lord..."
The fact that C.S.Lewis used the word fire means something... He could have used the word "red" or "sun". "Fire" must mean God's Word the Bible.

In Proverbs 8:19 "My (Wisdom's) fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold..."
Gold is and was one of the, if not the most, hunted after metal in the world... so what is better then gold? According to this passage it would be "Wisdom's fruit"!

The fact that the fire berries came from the Valleys in/of the Sun means something too...
Psalm 84:11 "For the Lord God is a sun and shield..."
God is called a Sun and Shield...hhmmm... the sun is a star and it comes up in the morning and Jesus called himself the bright and morning star in Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel...I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
And Jesus is called the Word of God in John 1:1,3,14 "In the beginning was the Word...All things were made by Him...And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..."

When Ramandu said that the berries make him alittle younger each day till he will be a babe (I dont have the words with me) that reminds me of 1st Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby."
We must be fed the "milk of the word" till we are grown for meat.
And Matthew 18:3-4
(Jesus talking)"...Except ye be covented, and become as little children,... Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child,..."

(Read all these passages fully to get the full context)
I hope you get where this is going:

I think (to sum this up) that the "Fire Berries" are a picture of God's Word which is also called "Wisdom's Fruit" which is "better than gold".
The place where the "Fire Berries" come from ("the Valleys in/of the Sun") is a picture of Jesus Christ THE Word of God who is God.
What happens to Ramandu happens to us (kinda) when are feed the "milk (or meat) of the Word" and become "humble like a child".

If C.S. Lewis didn't mean to have all this behind the "fire berries", ok fine. But it still works and is true...
Comments?

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Not everything in Narnia has a biblical parallel. I think the fire-berries are probably an allusion to some ancient mythology, maybe Greek. Fire symbolises refreshment and refinement of the spirit, so it's likely nothing more.

[Aravis Narnia]

Maybe just the general encouragement of eating healthy in general.

Maybe indicating specific foods are even healthier than what you may think, such as acerolas having A LOT of vitamin C or the skins of grapes having many antioxidants.

Maybe indicating the general message that we need to be good stewards of the environment for various reasons, including finding hidden gems. Specifically, I am thinking about the rosy periwinkle from the rainforest having anti-carcinogenic properties.

And of course, there is one little fruit that grows in the Mediterranean that its main extract helps keep many many people looking and feeling young. Though it starts out green and then it turns black.

[Lilygloves]

I feel that C.S. Lewis got inspired by the Bible for the plot, not necessarily every detail. It would be hard to find a specific Bible story that relates to TVotDT, much more difficult than LWW or LB. On the other hand, the connection to Isaiah may have been an allegory, inspiration, or mere coincidence.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I wouldn't say the Bible inspired the plot, that would be more Greek mythology - especially Homer's The Odyssey but it definitely influenced the over-arching themes of the story and seperate adventures.