Varna wrote:But wasn't the beginning of the story, at least, told orally to children? I think it's possible to write for children and at the same time sneak in a few things that at the moment only the adult reader would get.
The books, if I remember correctly, both begin with a short poem that is, I think, directed at children exclusively. After that, it is, I suppose, important to keep in mind that the Alice stories were actually commentaries on Victorian culture and politics.
If he reads aloud for children, it might make that task more interesting if there are some details in the book that will make himself chuckle a little, even when the child he's reading to, doesn't pick up that point.
Unlike J.M. Barrie's
Peter Pan, which seems particularly designed for children, with a few jokes thrown in for the parents--for example, Barrie writes
"Of course the Neverlands vary a good deal. John's, for instance, had a lagoon with flamingoes flying over it...while Michael, who was very small, had a flamingo with lagoons flying over it."
This would summon a chuckle from a mother or father and be completely ignored by a child (in fact, if the child was like me, it would make perfect sense)--Alice's stories were much more marinated in subtext; the reader knew exactly who the White Queen was, and anyone who followed the politics of the time would know immediately know what the author meant when he wrote
The Lion and the Unicorn were fighting for the crown:
The Lion beat the Unicorn all round the town....
"Does the one that wins get the crown? she asked, as well as she could, for the run was putting her quite out of breath.
"Dear me, no!" said the King. "What an idea!"
The unicorn was a popular sign for Prime Minister Benjamin Disreali, who was constantly fighting (and rarely winning) battles on behalf of the crown, and Parliament did quite often seem to run just to stay in the same spot (which was why Alice was out of breath). To a child, this was just an oddity of adults being strange. To an adult, well, you could get quite a chuckle over the unproductive state in Parliament, where the King was not a King, and the Queen nearly went into hiding when he passed.
coracle wrote:It was clearly popular before World War 2 in England, as can be seen in Noel Streatfeild's book "Ballet Shoes" where one of her main characters plays Alice in a West End show.
Oh, it has been years since I've run across that book! I had fairly forgotten the title and the author, I just remember bits of the story from when I read it as a girl. Now you have me in mind to go order it....
In the book, if I remember correctly, it was a children's play that they were performing, correct? I think the Alice books might have become classics because of their commentaries, but have remained classics due to the charming oddness of the stories.
wagga wrote:I really don't know why people kept pushing me to read this book as a child, as I never enjoyed it anywhere near as much as I enjoyed LWW and the rest, to tell the truth.
I don't know why they would have, either. I first read Alice in Wonderland and Through The Looking Glass when I was confined to bed with strep throat as a child. Of course, with a raging fever, both of the books made perfect sense.
Later on, I attempted to re-read them, and found them not quite as enjoyable as other works of fiction. However, they are still huge favorites of mine (just in case you can't tell).
I'm not sure what you mean by "hatters hatting" as a masculine activity - women wore hats those days a good deal more so than today, especially in England and especially in polite society.
If I remember correctly, there is a distinction between hatters and milliners. Hatters made men's hats, while milliners made women's hats. During Queen Victoria's reign, most women who worked worked part time to supplement the family income, and my understanding is that the majority of the work they did was often of the domestic type, or would do short sprints at factories, such as the millinery you mentioned. A hatter, again, if I remember correctly, was more of a shop owner where he did most if not all his own work, and was not factory driven, like women's millinery. (Any other history buffs care to weigh in on this? I'm forgetting all the things that made hatters special.
)
I'd have liked to see now how the satire fits. The trouble I have with your rulers bit - apart from the politicians and Prime Ministers in power at the time in Parliament - is that it was Queen Victoria who was the monarch, from when Lewis Carroll was a five year old until three years after his death - 1837 to 1901.
I have, personally, seen much more of a political commentary in Through the Looking Glass, and more of a social commentary in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Also, I've always noticed a marked resemblance between the
original drawings of the White Queen and photographs of a middle-aged to older Queen Victoria. I didn't realize there were quite as many connections until I settled in with a history about Queen Victoria, and nearly broke windows when I realized the connections.
Also, in the first book, the Queen plays a much smaller part. This might be because it appears to have been written (and was definitely published) after Albert's death, when the Queen chose to go into seclusion, leaving her son and parliament to make do on their own. Again, however, the first book to me seems to talk much more about social issues than political ones.
Perhaps Lewis Carroll might have thought that the rulers of his time might actually be behaving like children?
I believe Queen Victoria actually made a comment to this effect at one time, when she got frustrated with having to have so many women involved in getting dressed in the morning. I can't seem to locate the quote, but I remember her expressing annoyance at the idea that so many women had to come in, for the mere importance of handing her one piece of clothing that she might as well have picked up for herself.
Roger Lancelyn Green, Lewis' friend, had edited Lewis Carroll's diary, or so I have learned, and it is very likely Tolkien, Lewis and friends had discussed Alice in Wonderland at Inkling meetings.
Especially as he was an Inkling also, was he not? Perhaps I shall have to do some research about Mr. Green, now. I know so very little of him, despite loving the Arthur books. Oh dear! Now I feel like I'm falling down on the rights to keep my geek card.
Wouldn't you have loved to be able to listen in to their meetings? * sighs dreamily *
EDIT: Oh goodness, that is one whopper of a post! So sorry!