The Road Goes Ever On and On: Everything Tolkien - Book 2

[Varnafinde]

... it seems like they are trying to foreshadow LotR so that future watchers will watch The Hobbit movies and roll straight into LotR ...

Or run straight to the shop and buy the LotR DVDs?

I like Pippin's song, but I agree with whoever said that if it's going to be used in the film, it should be sung by Bilbo. I'm going to read the chapter of LotR where it's found and see whether it's possible that Bilbo was the author.

[ValiantArcher]

Jo, I agree that the choice of trailer music pulled me back to Gondor instead of putting me into the somber mood it was no doubt intended to! I don't think I would've had such a strong reaction if they'd hadn't used Billy Boyd's version. I believe Bilbo was indeed the original author (but do check and let us know, Varna!), so I wouldn't mind if he (or even one of the Dwarves) sang it, but pulling it straight out of RotK kind of bugged me...

Otherwise, I don't really have too much of an opinion on the teaser; at this point, it'll be what it'll be and there's not too much of a point of me getting worked up over it now, especially since it is still a teaser.

[Varnafinde]

Random: The use of Pippin's song, to me, suggests that they do intend to leave you heartbroken at the end of the movie. (I remember seeing Faramir's charge for the first time and breaking down in tears in the theater. And they don't even have a pause button.) So... I think it's a good sign even if it doesn't seem to thematically fit...

Being heartbroken at the end of the movie actually might thematically fit - we can expect some of those characters we've come closest to, to die. At least if they follow the book in that respect. And it probably is a good sign.

I believe Bilbo was indeed the original author (but do check and let us know, Varna!), so I wouldn't mind if he (or even one of the Dwarves) sang it, but pulling it straight out of RotK kind of bugged me...

It doesn't belong in RotK, but in FotR, and it isn't a sad song at all - they actually had to change the text to make it a sad one (more about that later). In the book, the hobbits begin singing it while they're planning to rest for the night, just before they meet the Elves and spend the night with them.

They began to hum softly, as hobbits have a way of doing as they walk along, especially when they are drawing near to home at night. With most hobbits it is a supper-song or a bed-song; but these hobbits hummed a walking-song (though not, of course, without any mention of supper and bed).

The idea is "oh lovely, now we're nearly back home", which is a rather hobbitty attitude to adventure

And indeed

Bilbo Baggins had made the words, to a tune that was as old as the hills, and taught it to Frodo as they walked in the lanes of the Water-valley and talked about Adventure.

The third (and last) verse of the song really goes like this,

Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight.
Then world behind and home ahead,
We’ll wander back to home and bed.
 Mist and twilight, cloud and shade,
 Away shall fade! Away shall fade!
 Fire and lamp, and meat and bread,
 And then to bed! And then to bed!

The text is changed in the RotK film version - the thoughts of a cosy home are removed.
And what is more: "Away shall fade" is changed to "All shall fade" - which turns the meaning of those two lines completely upside down!

[daughter of the King]

They are trying too hard to have it set up for LotR. The tone, the flash of the "eye", the song, the way it seems to set up for a more depressing end... it seems like they are trying to foreshadow LotR so that future watchers will watch The Hobbit movies and roll straight into LotR and "understand" without being told that there is a time gap between movies and that's why LotR is such a dark story to begin with until the introduction of hope into the story.

Peter Jackson said that was what he was essentially trying to do at the Comic Con panel. I get where he's going with it, because TH should lead into LotR. However, I think he's going about it the wrong way. He's making TH a "save all of Middle-Earth" thing, rather than have it lead up to the actual save the world story. In an effort to make it less of a children's story, he went too far in the other direction. There should be stirrings of darkness and dread in TH, but not all-out Gandalf fights someone he can't beat! The Nazgul are back! Doom and gloom!

SHOW SPOILER

I don't mind Gandalf and Galadriel having a close relationship, but they do seem to be pushing it really hard.

SHOW SPOILER

Other than the Arkenstone plot ( ), I just really want Tauriel to have some actual character development. If you're going to create a character, make sure that character is a good one. So far, she's only been Legolas' conscience and Kili's crush.

I'm pretty convinced that the trailer music was just fan service. Hey, remember how you felt when you heard this before? You're going to feel that way again!

If they're going to adapt Tolkien's poetry, I wish they had adapted the Misty Mountains Reprise instead. Particularly the last two verses:

Now call we over mountains cold,
'Come back unto the caverns old'!
Here at the Gates the king awaits,
His hands are rich with gems and gold.

The king is come unto his hall
Under the Mountain dark and tall.
The Worm of Dread is slain and dead,
And ever so our foes shall fall!

The Worm of Dread line would obviously need to be rewritten, but other than that these two verses emphasize Thorin's gold sickness (which they had already been pushing really hard), and that last line has so much potential. Imagine hearing that and then immediately going into Bard and Thorin's exchange in the trailer.

[Meltintalle]

I'm pretty convinced that the trailer music was just fan service. Hey, remember how you felt when you heard this before? You're going to feel that way again!

If they're going to adapt Tolkien's poetry, I wish they had adapted the Misty Mountains Reprise instead.

...now THAT would have been fan service. That song is about the best part of the first movie.

I wonder if anyone has done a tune for Tolkien's original hobbit version of "Home is Behind" (or whatever its title may be)? I was having a hard time reading the verse and not hearing the movie tune in my head... (I just listened to the BBC radio adaptation where they did some of the songs, but I don't remember hearing that particular verse.)

[ValiantArcher]

Varna, I did mean that they pulled the actual song recording straight from the RotK movie. Thanks for clarifying and checking into that!

Ooooh, the Misty Mountains Reprise would've been great, Dot!

Which original hobbit version are you thinking, Mel? I'm sure there's a tune somewhere (there's a possiblility Adele McAllister might have one?)...

Speaking of, are any of you familiar with Adele McAllister's settings of Tolkien's poetry as songs? She has a lot of them in a playlist, but she also has Tom Bombadil's Song, The King Beneath the Mountain, The Little House of Lost Play, and some others on her main page.

[Varnafinde]

I wonder if anyone has done a tune for Tolkien's original hobbit version of "Home is Behind" (or whatever its title may be)? I was having a hard time reading the verse and not hearing the movie tune in my head... (I just listened to the BBC radio adaptation where they did some of the songs, but I don't remember hearing that particular verse.)

Yes, there has been published a song cycle called The Road Goes Ever On. Poems & Songs of Middle Earth.
Upon the hearth the fire is red (which is the title) is included in this cycle.

When I googled "Poems & Songs of Middle Earth" I found this gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dmRwj6QFIA
Upon the hearth the fire is red is the second song, at about 2:13 - it's the type of merry song that I would have expected.
"Mist and twilight, cloud and shade, Away shall fade! Away shall fade!" (at 3:47) goes at a very happy tune.

Wikipedia has more details about the song cycle at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Goes_Ever_On.

With Tolkien's approval, Donald Swann wrote the music for this song cycle, and much of the music resembles English traditional music or folk music.
(...)
An LP record of this song cycle was recorded on 12 June 1967, with Donald Swann on piano and William Elvin singing. Side one of this record consisted of Tolkien himself reading five poems from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. The first track on side two was Tolkien reading the Elvish prayer "A Elbereth Gilthoniel". The remainder of side two contained the song cycle performed by Swann and Elvin.[2] This LP record, entitled Poems & Songs of Middle Earth, is long out of print and very difficult to find.

I found facts about the LP at http://www.discogs.com/release/1039597. The illustration on the cover is by Pauline Baynes - she made some book covers for LotR, and this is one of them.

[shastastwin]

Colin Rudd is another artist who has recorded versions of many of the songs in LotR. His version of this song is very quiet and contemplative. It's one of my favorites among his Tolkien recordings.

[johobbit]

I was actually a bit more confused by the shot of Galadriel's feet. What were they trying to suggest there? She goes and looks in her mirror?

Wondering the same. Only time will tell ...

the tone, the flash of the "eye", the song,

Yep, and Galadriel's feet.

And you know, because the feel and intent of Pippin's song is so different from the original, I often forget that it is a re-working of one of the Walking Song verses from FotR in "Three is Company". I looked it up and here is what it says (ahhh, how I love Tolkien's description in that paragraph just prior to the song):

Bilbo Baggins had made the words, to a tune that was as old as the hills, and taught it to Frodo as they walked in the lanes of the Water-valley and talked about Adventure.

The idea is "oh lovely, now we're nearly back home", which is a rather hobbitty attitude to adventure

Yes! So different than that heart-wrenching song in RotK, which is amazing in its own right. It is quite something what the change of a few words can do to the entire atmosphere.

If they're going to adapt Tolkien's poetry, I wish they had adapted the Misty Mountains Reprise instead. Particularly the last two verses:

That song is about the best part of the first movie.

Indeed and indeed!

Ahh, Varna, I have heard/read about Swann's Song Cycle over the years, and have always been meaning to track it down. Thanks for that link! Lovely!

shastastwin, I like the contemplative nature of Rudd's version too. And I appreciate his note beneath the video, talking of ... "[those] who have lost the vision that Tolkien gave to the world."

[Lady Galadriel]

Normally I attempt to see the positives, but in a nutshell, this trailer didn't "do it" for me in the way some of the other trailers did. The teaser trailer for AUJ (with the Dwarves' song) created massive excitement and I couldn't stop watching it. In the trailer for DOS, I was shocked into chills to see the dragon's head appearing at the end (and once again, couldn't stop watching it). Sadly, this trailer didn't stir up any of these emotions for me. Maybe it is still partially my disappointment over the name "The Battle of the Five Armies". Anyway, I didn't even get chills from excitement once.

The shot of Galadriel's feet is a throwback to LotR. I don't know if it's there for any other purpose, but to remind us, "Look! These movies are related to the Lord of the Rings!" Also, the shot of her kissing Gandalf's head? What?!?! Why?! I am disappointed with the way Gandalf has been characterized. He appears too weak and vulnerable. Not to mention the whole subplot with the Necromancer -- which is completely lacking in subtlety. The Necromancer showed himself so clearly at the end of DOS; how could Gandalf not know who he is? Yet in FotR some 60-ish years later, he is taken completely off-guard by the idea of Sauron.

Also, the choice of trailer music...odd. It's not that I don't like Pippin's song (I love it)--and I know that it's just there to put us into a certain mood--but I really want to hear more original pieces for The Hobbit. One of the things that made The Lord of the Rings so great was its ingenious and original soundtrack. However, The Hobbit movies keep "flashing back" bits and pieces of the LotR soundtrack -- and I'm disappointed in that. I'd really like to see more originality. Sadly, I don't know if that's going to end up being the case.

Edited

[johobbit]

I am disappointed with the way Gandalf has been characterized. He appears too weak and vulnerable.

Galadriel and Gandalf. GRRRR!!!! Hollywood, could you possibly have a hero character someday that's a hero and not coddled and hand-held in order to be halfway decent?

Hear-hear!

*high fives Lady Galadriel and fantasia re their thoughts on Gandalf* There were hints of this wimpyness in The RotK—the confrontation of the Witch King and Gandalf, for example—but this weak characterization is more pronounced in The Hobbit films. Come on, PJ!

As for the whole Gandalf/Sauron thing ... I just don't get what they're trying to prove. 95% of the films seem so different than Tolkien's vision.

Lady G, I think that's it: whilst Pippin's song is an amazingly, terribly poignant piece in The RotK, it belongs in that story ... not this one. Yes, original music, please! This is *not* The LotR, for Pete's sake. (Haha, yeah.)

[Lady Galadriel]

Galadriel and Gandalf. GRRRR!!!! Hollywood, could you possibly have a hero character someday that's a hero and not coddled and hand-held in order to be halfway decent?

Hear-hear!

*high fives Lady Galadriel and fantasia re their thoughts on Gandalf* There were hints of this wimpyness in The RotK—the confrontation of the Witch King and Gandalf, for example—but this weak characterization is more pronounced in The Hobbit films. Come on, PJ!

Ugh -- I have always hated that confrontation scene. Perhaps that is why it ended up deleted from the theatrical version--even though apparently they thought it was good enough to be added into the extended.

In my opinion, Gandalf is not a character whose characterization should be played with to the extent that it has been. He is a hero sent by the Valar to protect Middle-Earth. In FotR, they play around a lot with the idea that Gandalf may finally meet a match that is too large for him to handle. We see a lot of emotion from him--fear, desperation, uncertainty--when he discovers that the One Ring has appeared and that Sauron is moving. When he is overpowered and imprisoned by Saruman, and later dragged over the chasm by the Balrog, we are supposed to feel Frodo's desperation as he realizes that he can no longer depend on Gandalf. Gandalf's defeat is profound--the viewer is supposed to be horrified, thinking, "How can this be? This isn't supposed to happen!" However, at this rate, I suspect the viewer may begin to think, "Oh...Gandalf has been defeated again!"

I think you are right, johobbit, when you say that his weakness has become more pronounced in the Hobbit films. Despite scenes in the LotR movies which weakened him as a character, he also had several glorious scenes which showed his strength. Often, his strength comes through his ability to get himself out of a scrape. (I love the tower scene in FotR when he jumps onto the Eagle, thereby using his own resources to get free. I also love the flashbacks in TTT when they show his fight with the Balrog in greater detail. These scenes show his strength as a character--not his weakness.) I would really like to see him rescue himself from the Necromancer. Therefore, I will be quite disappointed if Galadriel plays a key part in rescuing him.

It's not that I don't like Galadriel. I am interested to see if she shows a warrior side in BotFA -- and I think I may like it. It's just that I don't want to see her character strengthened at Gandalf's expense.

OK, done ranting for a bit

[johobbit]

Well said, Lady G!

Gandalf's defeat is profound--the viewer is supposed to be horrified, thinking, "How can this be? This isn't supposed to happen!" However, at this rate, I suspect the viewer may begin to think, "Oh...Gandalf has been defeated again!"

And there is nothing else to add ...

Despite scenes in the LotR movies which weakened him as a character, he also had several glorious scenes which showed his strength. Often, his strength comes through his ability to get himself out of a scrape.

I so appreciate those scenes! But sadly PJ seems inconsistent with how he portrays Gandalf. It's like he wants to showcase Tolkien's Gandalf, but his own demeaned wizard sneaks in there at times.

And hear-hear at your spoiler. I think I just may walk out of the theatre if that occurs.

It's not that I don't like Galadriel.

Rant away: I'm right with ya'!

I can hardly believe there are only just over 4 months before The Battle of the Five Armies releases! Oh, say, I heard someone recently call it The Battle of the Five Battles, wondering how many extra (and unneeded/pointless/useless) skirmishes PJ will insert.

To be honest, I'm not even sure I will go and see it on the big screen. That is my feeling now ... but when it comes down to it, I will probably go once, but certainly not opening day, or maybe even week. I want to hear feedback (yes, including spoilers) from others first, and then go and make up my own mind.

Has anyone seen the teaser trailer preceding a movie yet?

[daughter of the King]

Has anyone seen the teaser trailer preceding a movie yet?

I've heard that it's in front of some showings of Guardians of the Galaxy, but we went to a matinee, so we just saw trailers for Disney movies.

A clip from DoS EE was released a few days ago.
More of this and less boring chase scenes that look like video game footage please. Not that I'm planning on buying it. I have AUJ EE, but I've never bothered to remove the shrink wrap.

Also found this gem yesterday, The Barrel Song from the Rankin/Bass Hobbit with footage from DoS.

Which of course reminded me of the Orcs' song in RotK.

And I recently found a copy of BBC Radio's The J.R.R.Tolkien Collection, for only $36. It includes full-cast dramatizations of The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, Farmer Giles of Ham, Smith of Wooton Major, Leaf by Niggle, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, and an audio drama about Professor Tolkien. I'm ready for a road trip!

[Pattertwigs Pal]

There isn't much need for me to go into the trailer. I see it has already been discussed. I will say that until I read this thread I didn't realize Pippin's song was playing in the background. Also

SHOW SPOILER

I was relived to see the dwarves reunited. I still wonder how they are going to pull that off.

Dot, I enjoyed the barrel ride video and the orc one. I found the barrel ride video much easier to take with that song in the background than watching it in the movie.

[Shadowlander]

I was thinking about this recently and came here to see if there was a definitive answer. What would have happened had Eowyn (or another human) had picked up the ring from the dead Witch King Nazgul's remains and put it on? The elves still wore their rings and remained unaffected, and at least a few of the Dwarves who still had access to them as well. Would that human have become somehow greater? Or because it had been worn so long by a Nazgul would it have become corrupted over time somehow? Was just curious.